[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Morden279 [/i]
[B]What's more, you can argue forever about what is "evil", the phrase itself originates from religion, and do all religions [i]agree[/i] with eachother's philosophies?[/B][/QUOTE]
More or less. Most religions have at their core the idea you should be relaxed and groovy (to quote Eddie Izzard), and treat other people well. Typically, 'evil people' are the ones who don't do this, and, indeed, take a perverse pleasure in treating others badly, with few to no redeeming qualities. By this definition, Emperor Cartagia, for instance, would be very evil.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by David of Mac [/i]
[B]More or less. Most religions have at their core the idea you should be relaxed and groovy (to quote Eddie Izzard), and treat other people well. [/B][/QUOTE]
Ah, like Christianity; "Love your enemy but smite the unbelievers!" :rolleyes:
Yes, most religions do have have that belief at heart but they are rife with corruption and hypocracy. You will always have massive conflict on certain issues like homosexuality in the Clergy or Fundementalism in Islam.
In some lights, these can be seen as "Evil" as the go against religious scripture, but in other interpretations, they can be be viewed as perfectly legitimate for the same reasons.
Regards,
Morden
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
You're confusing two "versions" of christianity there. Christianity doesn't preach any form of "smite the unbeliever". It is very much in favour of love everyone, no matter who they are, as are most religions that I can think of. The "smite the unbeliever" message is told a little in the old testament, but christians consider the new testament to contain the most important messages, many of which superscede those in the old testament. For example, the old testament preaches "an eye for an eye", but in the new testament that is revoked in favour of "turn the other cheek".
Consider the audience. If you wanted to get early humanity to behave itself, what do you think would work better than telling people about the city God blew up because there wasn't a single decent person there?
Now, at the time of the new testament, society had grown to the point where scaring the piss out of people to keep them from raping and pillaging wasn't nessesary.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]You're confusing two "versions" of christianity there. Christianity doesn't preach any form of "smite the unbeliever". [/B][/QUOTE]
Don't worry Biggles, I'm not confused. (I went to a Catholic secondary school, Religious Education was compulsory!) ;)
I was just quoting a friend of mine who's a Pagan-Druidist and is no big fan of Christianity.
Have to say it. You can ignore the following if it sounds like I'm preaching.
The old testament describes how God separated a specific people to understand who He is. Such a nation had to be free from unsavory influences, thus most of the "smite the unbeliever" stories that people focus on. What tends to get lost is the constant forgiving that goes on, specifically to the Jewish people, since this is their story.
I don't agree with the modern view about society having matured enough not to need the same message. I think that people are still people, with the same basic flaws as always. Societies come and go, revisiting old ideas or devising new variations, but certain truths are fundamental, upon which a society is either based or eventually falters on.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Messiah [/i]
[B]A little??!! Its about all that is ever told in the old testament, and the old testament is big.
I have read it through several times, I know I might be exaggerating, but 'smite the unbeliever' is about all they do there. [/B][/QUOTE]
OK, so maybe I underrepresented the amount of smiting a little. :)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]OK, so maybe I underrepresented the amount of smiting a little. :) [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah quite a lot of smiting goes on, even the smiting of one's own kind!
Moses: "Woe unto thee oh Israel, thou have sinned a great sin in the eyes of the Lord! For this you shall drink bitter waters! Those who will not live by the law, shall DIE by the law!!!"
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Morden279 [/i]
[B][i]"Behold his mighty hand!"[/i]
*A large [COLOR=deeppink]pink[/COLOR] Aardvark drops on The Cabl3 Guy from above*
Regards,
Morden [/B][/QUOTE]
*Watches the [COLOR=deeppink]pink[/COLOR] Aardvark descend on his face tearing apart the cartaliage of his nose. The loud Aardvark scream tears through The Cabl3 Guy's brain. Oh no the arm where did it go? There is no pain its happening to fast the Aardvark is to fast. Wait no not that! I need that dont do that no! :eek: He now reflecs on what it would have been like to have children that time will never come. Finally the Aardvark tears into instestine & cuts out todays consumption, there was steak, frys, even string beans.*
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by The Cabl3 Guy [/i]
[B]*Watches the [COLOR=deeppink]pink[/COLOR] Aardvark descend on his face tearing apart the cartaliage of his nose. The loud Aardvark scream tears through The Cabl3 Guy's brain. Oh no the arm where did it go? There is no pain its happening to fast the Aardvark is to fast. Wait no not that! I need that dont do that no! :eek: He now reflecs on what it would have been like to have children that time will never come. Finally the Aardvark tears into instestine & cuts out todays consumption, there was steak, frys, even string beans.* [/B][/QUOTE]
Dude, that's just plain nasty, even for a religious text! :D
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Imhotep [/i]
[B]I agree...I think we should all abstain from Religoius discussions. Just keeps things more pleasant for everyone and don't have to worry about offending anyone one in particular. [/B][/QUOTE]
I disagree, people should have the right to discuss religion if they want, it's the politically correct attitude of "oh no, people might be offended" that causes problems by making the issue taboo.
If there are no malicious comments made, then fine.
But if we can't talk about an aspect of human civillization as significant as religion, then what can talk about?
Regards,
Morden
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Feel free to discuss it, I dont think there should be any (well, a few exceptions) sacred cows (as long as things remain civil). My personal feelings are against religious debates.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Imhotep [/i]
[B]Funny I thought this is a Babylon 5 site not the 700 Club...
Talking or not talking about religon is not the problem in our lives. It is the fact that everyone believes they are right and any one who doesn't think like they do way is wrong.
Regradless of what religon you believe or don't believe that is your right, but all I am saying is eventually in every religous discussion there comes sometime someone says something that may not seem hurtful to you or to someone who believes as you do that it will be precieved as hurtful by the one who does believe differently than you. I have seen it happen go people go crazy and it all starts with a innocent discussion as this about religon.[/B][/QUOTE]
This may not be the right forum, but the discussion shouldn't end just because of that. Everyone knows that religion will inevitably come up in ANY message forum.
Yes, religious discussions do often end up in flame wars, but only when certain "people" get involved.
Speaking from personal experience, I got into a religious flame war with a person in Saudi Arabia, who supported suicide bombings in Israel, and was vocal in his admiration for Islamic terrorists and fundementalism. According to those who knew this person outside the forums, he attended what can best be described as a monastary-school, which taught Islam from a somewhat one-sided point of view. (Such as interpreting the Koran in a number of obscure ways that justifies killing Israelites.)
The end result was the person in question was so ignorent of everything but his own misguided beliefs, he couldn't admit he was wrong, despite their morality being non-existant.
In most cases, the only non-heated religious discussions I've had with people, are if those people are [i]not religious themselves.[/i] If you start debating with people who have a belief system that results in them being somewhat biast or in extreme cases, ignorent of the truth, you start getting problems.
I'm not for one minute saying that ordinary, decent religious people are anything like the person I mentioned before, It's just a fact that there is no risk involved in discussion religion if [b]religiosity[/b] is left to one side.
So anyway, I think the fall of Londo is probably the most heartfelt. He wanted to achieve so much and he felt that the cost was worth anything. When he realized he got everything he ever asked for, he knew the cost was everything he held dear. His rise to Emperor cost him the only thing he ever really loved, Centauri itself.
Well christians should be following in Jesus's footsteps and do what he did ;)
But as for Londo he had only a couple of ways to redemm himself,one was not to kill the one who was already dead (Sheridan)save the eye/I that cannot see(the trilogy points to Londo himself) and to give into (something) knowing it will destroy you( G'Kar)
Lennier apparently died during the telepath war as did Lyta.
Yes, alot of Smiting went on in the Old Testament, but if you'll note, every single time the people had been warned repeatedly, but they didn't listen.
Look at Ninivah, warned, listened, escaped the smiting. :)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]Yes, alot of Smiting went on in the Old Testament, but if you'll note, every single time the people had been warned repeatedly, but they didn't listen.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, but if you take a cynical point of view, what gave God the [b]right[/b] the judge and destroy civillizations he didn't like?
(I'm talking here as if God was a character and the Bible was a purely fictional work.)
NOTE: For members of the PC mob, this is NOT intended to be offensive. :rolleyes:
Probably the fact that he created the people who created the civilizations, and the people weren't playing by his rules, and he had just as much ability to uncreate as to create.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Yeah, I think that's pretty much it. God gave them life, it was his to take away if they decided to use it badly.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]Yeah, I think that's pretty much it. God gave them life, it was his to take away if they decided to use it badly. [/B][/QUOTE]
Wasn't very responsible though, was he? If he was a single parent father, God would be done by child welfare in a second. ;)
What, you'd rather the people were just puppets? Without adversity, challenge, they'd have no opportunity to screw up. Without the freedom to screw up, they'd have no freedom to choose [i]not[/i] to screw up.
They got the freedom, they made their choices, and they faced the consequences. God's responsibility, or lack thereof, had nothing to do with it.
Well thats basicly it,they were warned many times to stop what they were doing,they chose not to listen and paid with their lives,it wasn't like they weren't told .:rolleyes:
Comments
[B]What's more, you can argue forever about what is "evil", the phrase itself originates from religion, and do all religions [i]agree[/i] with eachother's philosophies?[/B][/QUOTE]
More or less. Most religions have at their core the idea you should be relaxed and groovy (to quote Eddie Izzard), and treat other people well. Typically, 'evil people' are the ones who don't do this, and, indeed, take a perverse pleasure in treating others badly, with few to no redeeming qualities. By this definition, Emperor Cartagia, for instance, would be very evil.
[B]More or less. Most religions have at their core the idea you should be relaxed and groovy (to quote Eddie Izzard), and treat other people well. [/B][/QUOTE]
Ah, like Christianity; "Love your enemy but smite the unbelievers!" :rolleyes:
Yes, most religions do have have that belief at heart but they are rife with corruption and hypocracy. You will always have massive conflict on certain issues like homosexuality in the Clergy or Fundementalism in Islam.
In some lights, these can be seen as "Evil" as the go against religious scripture, but in other interpretations, they can be be viewed as perfectly legitimate for the same reasons.
Regards,
Morden
[B]The "smite the unbeliever" message is told a little in the old testament,[/B][/QUOTE]
A little??!! Its about all that is ever told in the old testament, and the old testament is big.
I have read it through several times, I know I might be exaggerating, but 'smite the unbeliever' is about all they do there.
Now, at the time of the new testament, society had grown to the point where scaring the piss out of people to keep them from raping and pillaging wasn't nessesary.
[B]You're confusing two "versions" of christianity there. Christianity doesn't preach any form of "smite the unbeliever". [/B][/QUOTE]
Don't worry Biggles, I'm not confused. (I went to a Catholic secondary school, Religious Education was compulsory!) ;)
I was just quoting a friend of mine who's a Pagan-Druidist and is no big fan of Christianity.
Regards,
Morden
The old testament describes how God separated a specific people to understand who He is. Such a nation had to be free from unsavory influences, thus most of the "smite the unbeliever" stories that people focus on. What tends to get lost is the constant forgiving that goes on, specifically to the Jewish people, since this is their story.
I don't agree with the modern view about society having matured enough not to need the same message. I think that people are still people, with the same basic flaws as always. Societies come and go, revisiting old ideas or devising new variations, but certain truths are fundamental, upon which a society is either based or eventually falters on.
[B]A little??!! Its about all that is ever told in the old testament, and the old testament is big.
I have read it through several times, I know I might be exaggerating, but 'smite the unbeliever' is about all they do there. [/B][/QUOTE]
OK, so maybe I underrepresented the amount of smiting a little. :)
[B]OK, so maybe I underrepresented the amount of smiting a little. :) [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah quite a lot of smiting goes on, even the smiting of one's own kind!
Moses: "Woe unto thee oh Israel, thou have sinned a great sin in the eyes of the Lord! For this you shall drink bitter waters! Those who will not live by the law, shall DIE by the law!!!"
*Much smiting begins"
Regards,
Morden
[B]"SMITE ME! ALMIGHTY SMITER!" [/B][/QUOTE]
[i]"Behold his mighty hand!"[/i]
*A large [COLOR=deeppink]pink[/COLOR] Aardvark drops on The Cabl3 Guy from above*
Regards,
Morden
[B][i]"Behold his mighty hand!"[/i]
*A large [COLOR=deeppink]pink[/COLOR] Aardvark drops on The Cabl3 Guy from above*
Regards,
Morden [/B][/QUOTE]
*Watches the [COLOR=deeppink]pink[/COLOR] Aardvark descend on his face tearing apart the cartaliage of his nose. The loud Aardvark scream tears through The Cabl3 Guy's brain. Oh no the arm where did it go? There is no pain its happening to fast the Aardvark is to fast. Wait no not that! I need that dont do that no! :eek: He now reflecs on what it would have been like to have children that time will never come. Finally the Aardvark tears into instestine & cuts out todays consumption, there was steak, frys, even string beans.*
[B]*Watches the [COLOR=deeppink]pink[/COLOR] Aardvark descend on his face tearing apart the cartaliage of his nose. The loud Aardvark scream tears through The Cabl3 Guy's brain. Oh no the arm where did it go? There is no pain its happening to fast the Aardvark is to fast. Wait no not that! I need that dont do that no! :eek: He now reflecs on what it would have been like to have children that time will never come. Finally the Aardvark tears into instestine & cuts out todays consumption, there was steak, frys, even string beans.* [/B][/QUOTE]
Dude, that's just plain nasty, even for a religious text! :D
Regards,
Morden
[B]I agree...I think we should all abstain from Religoius discussions. Just keeps things more pleasant for everyone and don't have to worry about offending anyone one in particular. [/B][/QUOTE]
I disagree, people should have the right to discuss religion if they want, it's the politically correct attitude of "oh no, people might be offended" that causes problems by making the issue taboo.
If there are no malicious comments made, then fine.
But if we can't talk about an aspect of human civillization as significant as religion, then what can talk about?
Regards,
Morden
[B]Funny I thought this is a Babylon 5 site not the 700 Club...
Talking or not talking about religon is not the problem in our lives. It is the fact that everyone believes they are right and any one who doesn't think like they do way is wrong.
Regradless of what religon you believe or don't believe that is your right, but all I am saying is eventually in every religous discussion there comes sometime someone says something that may not seem hurtful to you or to someone who believes as you do that it will be precieved as hurtful by the one who does believe differently than you. I have seen it happen go people go crazy and it all starts with a innocent discussion as this about religon.[/B][/QUOTE]
This may not be the right forum, but the discussion shouldn't end just because of that. Everyone knows that religion will inevitably come up in ANY message forum.
Yes, religious discussions do often end up in flame wars, but only when certain "people" get involved.
Speaking from personal experience, I got into a religious flame war with a person in Saudi Arabia, who supported suicide bombings in Israel, and was vocal in his admiration for Islamic terrorists and fundementalism. According to those who knew this person outside the forums, he attended what can best be described as a monastary-school, which taught Islam from a somewhat one-sided point of view. (Such as interpreting the Koran in a number of obscure ways that justifies killing Israelites.)
The end result was the person in question was so ignorent of everything but his own misguided beliefs, he couldn't admit he was wrong, despite their morality being non-existant.
In most cases, the only non-heated religious discussions I've had with people, are if those people are [i]not religious themselves.[/i] If you start debating with people who have a belief system that results in them being somewhat biast or in extreme cases, ignorent of the truth, you start getting problems.
I'm not for one minute saying that ordinary, decent religious people are anything like the person I mentioned before, It's just a fact that there is no risk involved in discussion religion if [b]religiosity[/b] is left to one side.
Regards,
Morden
So anyway, I think the fall of Londo is probably the most heartfelt. He wanted to achieve so much and he felt that the cost was worth anything. When he realized he got everything he ever asked for, he knew the cost was everything he held dear. His rise to Emperor cost him the only thing he ever really loved, Centauri itself.
But as for Londo he had only a couple of ways to redemm himself,one was not to kill the one who was already dead (Sheridan)save the eye/I that cannot see(the trilogy points to Londo himself) and to give into (something) knowing it will destroy you( G'Kar)
Lennier apparently died during the telepath war as did Lyta.
need I say more? hehehe
Yes, alot of Smiting went on in the Old Testament, but if you'll note, every single time the people had been warned repeatedly, but they didn't listen.
Look at Ninivah, warned, listened, escaped the smiting. :)
[B]Yes, alot of Smiting went on in the Old Testament, but if you'll note, every single time the people had been warned repeatedly, but they didn't listen.[/B][/QUOTE]
Yes, but if you take a cynical point of view, what gave God the [b]right[/b] the judge and destroy civillizations he didn't like?
(I'm talking here as if God was a character and the Bible was a purely fictional work.)
NOTE: For members of the PC mob, this is NOT intended to be offensive. :rolleyes:
Regards,
Morden
[B]Yeah, I think that's pretty much it. God gave them life, it was his to take away if they decided to use it badly. [/B][/QUOTE]
Wasn't very responsible though, was he? If he was a single parent father, God would be done by child welfare in a second. ;)
Regards,
Morden
They got the freedom, they made their choices, and they faced the consequences. God's responsibility, or lack thereof, had nothing to do with it.