There are a lot of people right now calling for Muslim blood, even if the Muslims are just as horrified as we are. There have already been incidents of violence against Americans of the Islamic faith, which are just as ignorant as the attacks against us by the extremists. It is far too easy to blame all people who look a certain way for the actions of a few. We must be careful not to overreact in this matter.
That being said, I am satisfied with the way the investigation is going. I am hopeful that airport security procedures will help to prevent a horror like this being perpetrated again. As far as my feelings on an appropriate response: You do not swear vengeance on cancer, you cut out the tumors. You do not turn the other cheek on cancer, you eliminate it. Terrorism is a cancer. Bin Laden is a tumor. Saddam Hussein is a tumor. The Taliban is a tumor. These tumors must be excised for our world to be healthy again.
I feel that our president will not have much to do with this effort, but I trust in Colin Powell's ability to exterminate these bastards like the rats they are. I trust our military to work very effectively as the scalpel which the aforementioned tumors will find to be their nemesis.
Extremism is the poison which sickens all humanity.
------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
Whatever the US response is, it must be something that allows us as a nation to keep the moral high ground. We must be able to say at all times that we acted with honor, to show the world just what it means to be American, and why America is great. That not even after such a tragedy do we give up the values we hold so dear, that indeed many are willing to die for.
We must first find out what nation is responsible for this. I do not believe that Bin Laden or anyone else could have done this unaided. There almost certainly has to be support from some foreign power. Once we determine who, we declare war. Not to vaporize the people of that nation, but to force them to hand over their leaders and to give us access to whatever it takes to know exactly what happens. Most likely, this will give us enough information to convict and execute those responsible, even though my legal knowledge is insufficient to say for what. Then we must destroy that country's military hardware and military resources, hunt down and execute the terrorists, and start rebuilding. At all times, we must remember that this is not merely revenge, but something far more important. This is Justice.
The conflict in the Middle East is a different matter entirely. I for one am sick of hearing about it at all. Not because I don't care, because I do. I care for any number of reasons too complicated to state here. But there is no way two groups of people who hate each other will be willing to make peace just because we say they should. They will make peace only when they are ready to make peace, and not before. Bush has it right. The US is here to provide a forum when they want to talk, but until they want to, all we can do is get them angry for not minding our own business.
Furthermore, Israel is our ally. End of story. We must criticize them when they cross the line the same as anyone else, but we are honor bound to help them defend their people. Now you see the kind of actions they have to deal with every day. We as a people will weather the storm, but the way we do so will shape the future for years to come. At the end of the day, honor and justice must prevail.
Nick
[quote]Originally posted by JohnD:
[b]
You mean like how the Palestinans maintain a campaign of terror against Israeli men, women and children? Calling Israel the oppressor is a bit...off. Granted, they aren't the most diplomatic country, but we would be just as bad, if not worse, if we were surrounded by hostile powers and under constant attack from terrorists and a war what, every five or ten years, the odds always against them?[/b][/quote]
The problem with Isreal and Palestine, is that they are both as bad as each other. Isreal is the oppressor, I mean they've only existed since 1947, and have invaded Egypt, Lebanon, Palestine, in an attempt to get more land. I perfectly understand the Palestinian situation.... Ireland was in the same situation during our fight for independence from Britian in 1920.... we were fighting with nothing whereas the British had their navy and big guns threatening us. Its the same in Palestine. the Isrealies have tanks, the Palestinians, stones and makeshift bombs.
And yes I understand the Israeli situation, they are surrounded by hostile terrorist groups wanting to destroy them, so they need to be extra agressive to defend themselves. But the current idiot leading Israel needs to be removed... he's a racist and a very dangerous man... what the hell was he thinking visiting that Muslim shrine? He wanted conflict as he knew he could get power in a period of massive unrest.
Its like any civil war really... both sides blame the other... like in Northern Ireland, Catholic v Protestant. Both have committed terribel acts, and the finger of blame cannot be pointed at anyone...
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'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]B5 site[/url].
[quote][b]Originally posted by Falcon1:
And yes I understand the Israeli situation, they are surrounded by hostile terrorist groups wanting to destroy them, so they need to be extra agressive to defend themselves. But the current idiot leading Israel needs to be removed... he's a racist and a very dangerous man... what the hell was he thinking visiting that Muslim shrine? He wanted conflict as he knew he could get power in a period of massive unrest.
[/b][/quote]
Based on what you wrote, I don't think you understand "the Israeli situation" at all. Check your history books and you will see that Israel doesn't just go around invading other countries for no apparent reason. I'm not saying Israelis are perfect, but considering what they have to deal with, they've done very well for themselves, and have been extremely forgiving and civilized, compared to some of their neighbours. And the shrine visited by Sharon is not an exclusively Muslim shrine, it is a holy place for most of today's religions. (Judaism, Christianity and the Muslim religion have holy places there).
Let's not get into an argument about Israel vs. Palestine here, that's not what this thread is for -- but just don't go around bashing Israel needlessly without having all the facts.
[This message has been edited by Arik (edited 09-13-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Arik (edited 09-13-2001).]
So Israel invading the Golan Heights, and Egypt was ok then?? I don't want to get into an arguement on Israel v Palestine... Sahron knew what he was doing, what he did was deliberate provocation of the Palestinian people, esp considering his history in the army. Sure the Palestinian's should not have reacted as they did, unfortunately calm and common sense could not prevail.
Sure the nation of Israel has done well to protect itself, but the current government is no where near as understanding or forgiving as the previous governments.
Arik I have read my history....
And there we should leave it. From what we know to date there was no Palestinian involvement. ....
------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]B5 site[/url].
[This message has been edited by Falcon1 (edited 09-13-2001).]
[quote][b]Originally posted by Falcon1:
And there we should leave it.
[/b][/quote]
Agreed.
What bothers me about the current situation (in NY) is that there's so little we can do to help. Giving blood or donating money is something, but I think many people are anxious to act, to actually DO something to help. I know there are people (like FBI agents) acting on this, but to me, it feels like the whole world has simply stopped. It really does feel like a moment of revelation.
[This message has been edited by Arik (edited 09-13-2001).]
Well watching things from the far side of the atlantic, I can this situation becoming very frustrating for people. As you said giving blood and donating funds to help can only do so much. I can see alot of people wanting to go to New York to help clear the rubble, but I fear that the city authorities wouldn't want a huge influx of people into the city due to the dangerous conditions of the buildings around the ruins. I might be wrong but its a thought that crossed my mind.
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'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]B5 site[/url].
If you think Afghanistan's government is trying to build freedom, you've got some research to do. Try looking up women's rights, the Taliban, and stoned to death. Afghanistan is one of the least free nations in the world. Their government is extremely oppressive, extremist, and guilty of sheltering terrorist kingpin Osama Bin Laden.
[/B][/quote]
I was refering to the rebels in Afganistan who are trying to fight against the Taliban.
My belif is that many groups around the world are trying to libirate their lands from oppresion, and that we must help them to do so. Their war must become our war if we are to succede. Meerly bombing a country like Afganistan to rubble will only create more hatred twards the U.S, but if we fight alongside those who wish only freedom for their families and their land, then those people will become our allies instead of our enemies.
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We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."
[quote]Originally posted by JohnD:
[b] Not meaning to sound callous, but ignoring the fact that nothing is ever the same as it was in any specific instant in time, sure it will be. A few months or so after we figure out who did it and we lob a few score cruise missiles and airstrikes their way, things will be the same again. We'll forget any lessons we learned and will set ourselves up for the next terrorist strike. We didn't learn from Lebanon and all the Marines lost, we didn't learn from Sudan, the first World Trade Center bombing, the bombing of our destroyer and we didn't learn from Oklahoma city. Our on-scene human intelligence is still drastically underfunded and undersupported and we still don't take the threat seriously enough.[/b][/quote]
And Tom Clancy made that point in a very vocal way at a McNiel-Lehrer Roundtable.
Tom Clancy (to no surprise) has been on several programs following the attack, and commented on how even the best electronic evesdropping technology is of little use when those people now have access to some of the best scrambling and encryption equipment that we (as in the US) make.
I unfortunately missed Clancy's comments on the similarity of these attacks to that in the final Pages of "Debt of Honor." I'm sure noone was more horrified than he was seeing his fictional plot device carried out.
Going back to Human Intelligence Operations:
The Director of the CIA was on one of the channels last night saying that the "technology boom" that has happened in computer and telecommunications industries has made it EXCEPTIONALLY difficult for them to keep up. Hackers, scrambling satphones, and internet ghosting are just a few of the things that they are struggling with countering right now.
bin Laden apparently uses satphones with digital encryption, made right here in the US.
The scarier part about all of this is that he's a blowback, and is using allot of the tactics he learned against us now. I don't want to jump on the bin Laden bandwagon right now, but it sure looks like he's the major suspect. Look at his profile on the israeli anti-terrorism Institute website.
[url="http://www.ict.org.il/articles/bombings.cfm"]http://www.ict.org.il/articles/bombings.cfm[/url]
Money
Training
Ability
Looks like the shoe's gonna fit...
[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 09-13-2001).]
[quote]Originally posted by TheEXone:
[b] I was refering to the rebels in Afganistan who are trying to fight against the Taliban.
My belif is that many groups around the world are trying to libirate their lands from oppresion, and that we must help them to do so. Their war must become our war if we are to succede. Meerly bombing a country like Afganistan to rubble will only create more hatred twards the U.S, but if we fight alongside those who wish only freedom for their families and their land, then those people will become our allies instead of our enemies. [/b][/quote]
The group you are referring to is the Northern Alliance and there resistance is the main reason that the Taliban is not reconized as the ruling entity of Afganistan.
Yes we could support the rebels against the taliban, but we have to be sure that we aren't just replacing one fanatic group with another. Remember the CIA sent support to Afgainistan during its war with Russia, in effect setting the Taliban up to rule once the war was over.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
The head of the NSA said recently that they were no longer able to keep up with terrorists and monitor their communications effectively.
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
People who would like to read a balanced history of this conflict:
From Beirut to Jerusalem by Thomas Friedman.
A well respected NY Times correspondent.
It opened my eyes.We have no idea about what goes on over there.
Here is the link:
[url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385413726/qid=1000410432/sr=1-15/ref=sc_b_15/002-3996395-4366458"]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385413726/qid=1000410432/sr=1-15/ref=sc_b_15/002-3996395-4366458[/url]
[quote]Originally posted by In Between:
[b]Re: Israel v Palistine
People who would like to read a balanced history of this conflict:
From Beirut to Jerusalem by Thomas Friedman.
A well respected NY Times correspondent.
It opened my eyes.We have no idea about what goes on over there.
Here is the link:
[url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385413726/qid=1000410432/sr=1-15/ref=sc_b_15/002-3996395-4366458"]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385413726/qid=1000410432/sr=1- 15/ref=sc_b_15/002-3996395-4366458[/url]
[/b][/quote]
Thomas Freidman is an excellent reporter (read: he's not the "hard copy" yournalist type you see on TV now adays). I'm planning on adding that to my list.
[After 2 weeks of vacation -- I am finally back at FirstOnes.com... I have looked for the "right" thread to add my words into and I feel this is it because it seems to be the original one.]
----
I am almost not able to find the words... what happened is a most tragic terrorist attack. My feelings are with all the victims, their friends and relatives. I was shocked when I saw the pictures on t.v. -- I could not believe that it was reality.
I do not want to start a discussion, nor is it my intend to hurt anyone's feelings. Nevertheless, I want to add something as something to think about: I can understand the fear and anger that this terrible event invokes in many people (I am also affected by that), but I am conviced that revenge and war are the wrong answers. No matter who planned, organized and executed these crimes, any acts of force by the USA (with or without the NATO) without the involvement of the World Security Council and the United Nations Organization will draw the world further into chaos.
I hope that this won't turn into a global war. I hope that we won't see more civil victims.
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We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
[quote]No matter who planned, organized and executed these crimes, any acts of force by the USA (with or without the NATO) without the involvement of the World Security Council and the United Nations Organization will draw the world further into chaos.[/quote]
I think you're a little late on that one. The US has the full support of the UN and all but a few countries.
Well, Sam, my point is the distinction between justice and a war. The UN does not support a war in response to the terrorist attacks.
I don't know if the following link has already been promoted here: [url="http://www.9-11peace.org/"]http://www.9-11peace.org/[/url]
Have a look at it.
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We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
Revenge is not the goal. Justice is only a small part of the goal.
The goal is to remove the ability of terrorists to accomplish something like this ever again. It means finding existing terrorist organizations and totally destroying them. It means that every government which supports or harbors these organizations must be wiped off the face of the Earth. It also means that any government which is suspected of providing chemical/biological/nuclear weapons to terrorists must change their ways or also be destroyed.
Read Ender's (Orson Scott Card's) take on this at: [url="http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1.html"]http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1.html[/url]
[This message has been edited by emarkp (edited 09-25-2001).]
[quote]Originally posted by emarkp:
Okay, all together now.
Revenge is not the goal. Justice is only a small part of the goal.
The goal is to remove the ability of terrorists to accomplish something like this ever again. It means finding existing terrorist organizations and totally destroying them. It means that every government which supports or harbors these organizations must be wiped off the face of the Earth. It also means that any government which is suspected of providing chemical/biological/nuclear weapons to terrorists must change their ways or also be destroyed.
Read Ender's (Orson Scott Card's) take on this at: [url="http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1.html"]http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1.html[/url]
[/quote]
Terrorism is an aggressive and extremist reaction to unsolved problems which have led to a situation which people cannot live with anymore.
If you want to fight terrorism then you should help solving those problems.
A "war against terrorism" (What is that supposed to mean -- terrorism is a concept. Can one fight a concept?) will only lead to the complication of the already existing problems and to the creation of new ones.
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We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
[This message has been edited by Language of Hope (edited 09-26-2001).]
[quote]Terrorism is an aggressive and extremist reaction to unsolved problems which have led to a situation which people cannot live with anymore.
If you want to fight terrorism then you should help solving those problems.[/quote]You're right. If we abandoned Israel and didn't make so much as a peep when the extremists assaulted with everything they had, then we might not have a problem. At least not until they started eyeing the Americas as a target.
[quote]A "war against terrorism" (What is that supposed to mean -- terrorism is a concept. Can one fight a concept?)...[/quote]Oh please. It has a perfectly clear meaning. It is a war on those who perpetrate and support terrorism.
[quote]...will only lead to the complication of the already existing problems and to the creation of new ones.[/quote]Bull. That is not the only possible outcome. We've seen the outcome when we don't address the issue, and it isn't pretty.
That looks to me like a U.S government sponsored terrorist training camp. This sort of activity makes me sick, the people of America have to speak up against all this cloak and dagger stuff. Who knows what the true purpose of this place is, sounds like rouge elements in the government conducting their own private foreign policy. Its programs like this that turn people against the U.S and gives terrorists more credibility. The worst part is that the people who run these CIA, NSA programs can hide under "top secret" and "national security" therfore being acountable to no one
but themselves. We must take back this country if we want to win the comming war.
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We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."
[quote]Originally posted by emarkp:
[b]Okay, all together now.
Revenge is not the goal. Justice is only a small part of the goal.
The goal is to remove the ability of terrorists to accomplish something like this ever again. It means finding existing terrorist organizations and totally destroying them. It means that every government which supports or harbors these organizations must be wiped off the face of the Earth. It also means that any government which is suspected of providing chemical/biological/nuclear weapons to terrorists must change their ways or also be destroyed.
Read Ender's (Orson Scott Card's) take on this at: [url="http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1.html"]http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1.html[/url]
[This message has been edited by emarkp (edited 09-25-2001).][/b][/quote]
So... the CIA should be totally destroyed and the American Government wiped off the face of the Earth. I agree Mr. emarkp but how? I'm just... (counts fingers) one man -- and I'm Canadian. What weapons will I buy with my Canadian pesos? A McDick's butter knife? Flee the village! And call it a hunch but I don't think we'll get American support on this one. Well... maybe Noam Chomsky. But he's just... (counts fingers) one man. Plus me that makes two. How can... (counts fingers) two men totally destroy the CIA and wipe the American Government off the face of the Earth? Plus, I'm still legally a teen. So that's really... (thinks for a second) one man and one teen. Hey! I've got an idea: YOU CAN JOIN US!!! But that's only... (counts fingers) two men and one teen...
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"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
Comments
That being said, I am satisfied with the way the investigation is going. I am hopeful that airport security procedures will help to prevent a horror like this being perpetrated again. As far as my feelings on an appropriate response: You do not swear vengeance on cancer, you cut out the tumors. You do not turn the other cheek on cancer, you eliminate it. Terrorism is a cancer. Bin Laden is a tumor. Saddam Hussein is a tumor. The Taliban is a tumor. These tumors must be excised for our world to be healthy again.
I feel that our president will not have much to do with this effort, but I trust in Colin Powell's ability to exterminate these bastards like the rats they are. I trust our military to work very effectively as the scalpel which the aforementioned tumors will find to be their nemesis.
Extremism is the poison which sickens all humanity.
------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
I am so shocked about this Situation...
We must first find out what nation is responsible for this. I do not believe that Bin Laden or anyone else could have done this unaided. There almost certainly has to be support from some foreign power. Once we determine who, we declare war. Not to vaporize the people of that nation, but to force them to hand over their leaders and to give us access to whatever it takes to know exactly what happens. Most likely, this will give us enough information to convict and execute those responsible, even though my legal knowledge is insufficient to say for what. Then we must destroy that country's military hardware and military resources, hunt down and execute the terrorists, and start rebuilding. At all times, we must remember that this is not merely revenge, but something far more important. This is Justice.
The conflict in the Middle East is a different matter entirely. I for one am sick of hearing about it at all. Not because I don't care, because I do. I care for any number of reasons too complicated to state here. But there is no way two groups of people who hate each other will be willing to make peace just because we say they should. They will make peace only when they are ready to make peace, and not before. Bush has it right. The US is here to provide a forum when they want to talk, but until they want to, all we can do is get them angry for not minding our own business.
Furthermore, Israel is our ally. End of story. We must criticize them when they cross the line the same as anyone else, but we are honor bound to help them defend their people. Now you see the kind of actions they have to deal with every day. We as a people will weather the storm, but the way we do so will shape the future for years to come. At the end of the day, honor and justice must prevail.
Nick
[b]
You mean like how the Palestinans maintain a campaign of terror against Israeli men, women and children? Calling Israel the oppressor is a bit...off. Granted, they aren't the most diplomatic country, but we would be just as bad, if not worse, if we were surrounded by hostile powers and under constant attack from terrorists and a war what, every five or ten years, the odds always against them?[/b][/quote]
The problem with Isreal and Palestine, is that they are both as bad as each other. Isreal is the oppressor, I mean they've only existed since 1947, and have invaded Egypt, Lebanon, Palestine, in an attempt to get more land. I perfectly understand the Palestinian situation.... Ireland was in the same situation during our fight for independence from Britian in 1920.... we were fighting with nothing whereas the British had their navy and big guns threatening us. Its the same in Palestine. the Isrealies have tanks, the Palestinians, stones and makeshift bombs.
And yes I understand the Israeli situation, they are surrounded by hostile terrorist groups wanting to destroy them, so they need to be extra agressive to defend themselves. But the current idiot leading Israel needs to be removed... he's a racist and a very dangerous man... what the hell was he thinking visiting that Muslim shrine? He wanted conflict as he knew he could get power in a period of massive unrest.
Its like any civil war really... both sides blame the other... like in Northern Ireland, Catholic v Protestant. Both have committed terribel acts, and the finger of blame cannot be pointed at anyone...
------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]B5 site[/url].
And yes I understand the Israeli situation, they are surrounded by hostile terrorist groups wanting to destroy them, so they need to be extra agressive to defend themselves. But the current idiot leading Israel needs to be removed... he's a racist and a very dangerous man... what the hell was he thinking visiting that Muslim shrine? He wanted conflict as he knew he could get power in a period of massive unrest.
[/b][/quote]
Based on what you wrote, I don't think you understand "the Israeli situation" at all. Check your history books and you will see that Israel doesn't just go around invading other countries for no apparent reason. I'm not saying Israelis are perfect, but considering what they have to deal with, they've done very well for themselves, and have been extremely forgiving and civilized, compared to some of their neighbours. And the shrine visited by Sharon is not an exclusively Muslim shrine, it is a holy place for most of today's religions. (Judaism, Christianity and the Muslim religion have holy places there).
Let's not get into an argument about Israel vs. Palestine here, that's not what this thread is for -- but just don't go around bashing Israel needlessly without having all the facts.
[This message has been edited by Arik (edited 09-13-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Arik (edited 09-13-2001).]
Sure the nation of Israel has done well to protect itself, but the current government is no where near as understanding or forgiving as the previous governments.
Arik I have read my history....
And there we should leave it. From what we know to date there was no Palestinian involvement. ....
------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]B5 site[/url].
[This message has been edited by Falcon1 (edited 09-13-2001).]
And there we should leave it.
[/b][/quote]
Agreed.
What bothers me about the current situation (in NY) is that there's so little we can do to help. Giving blood or donating money is something, but I think many people are anxious to act, to actually DO something to help. I know there are people (like FBI agents) acting on this, but to me, it feels like the whole world has simply stopped. It really does feel like a moment of revelation.
[This message has been edited by Arik (edited 09-13-2001).]
------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]B5 site[/url].
If you think Afghanistan's government is trying to build freedom, you've got some research to do. Try looking up women's rights, the Taliban, and stoned to death. Afghanistan is one of the least free nations in the world. Their government is extremely oppressive, extremist, and guilty of sheltering terrorist kingpin Osama Bin Laden.
[/B][/quote]
I was refering to the rebels in Afganistan who are trying to fight against the Taliban.
My belif is that many groups around the world are trying to libirate their lands from oppresion, and that we must help them to do so. Their war must become our war if we are to succede. Meerly bombing a country like Afganistan to rubble will only create more hatred twards the U.S, but if we fight alongside those who wish only freedom for their families and their land, then those people will become our allies instead of our enemies.
------------------
We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."
[b] Not meaning to sound callous, but ignoring the fact that nothing is ever the same as it was in any specific instant in time, sure it will be. A few months or so after we figure out who did it and we lob a few score cruise missiles and airstrikes their way, things will be the same again. We'll forget any lessons we learned and will set ourselves up for the next terrorist strike. We didn't learn from Lebanon and all the Marines lost, we didn't learn from Sudan, the first World Trade Center bombing, the bombing of our destroyer and we didn't learn from Oklahoma city. Our on-scene human intelligence is still drastically underfunded and undersupported and we still don't take the threat seriously enough.[/b][/quote]
And Tom Clancy made that point in a very vocal way at a McNiel-Lehrer Roundtable.
Tom Clancy (to no surprise) has been on several programs following the attack, and commented on how even the best electronic evesdropping technology is of little use when those people now have access to some of the best scrambling and encryption equipment that we (as in the US) make.
I unfortunately missed Clancy's comments on the similarity of these attacks to that in the final Pages of "Debt of Honor." I'm sure noone was more horrified than he was seeing his fictional plot device carried out.
Going back to Human Intelligence Operations:
The Director of the CIA was on one of the channels last night saying that the "technology boom" that has happened in computer and telecommunications industries has made it EXCEPTIONALLY difficult for them to keep up. Hackers, scrambling satphones, and internet ghosting are just a few of the things that they are struggling with countering right now.
bin Laden apparently uses satphones with digital encryption, made right here in the US.
The scarier part about all of this is that he's a blowback, and is using allot of the tactics he learned against us now. I don't want to jump on the bin Laden bandwagon right now, but it sure looks like he's the major suspect. Look at his profile on the israeli anti-terrorism Institute website.
[url="http://www.ict.org.il/articles/bombings.cfm"]http://www.ict.org.il/articles/bombings.cfm[/url]
Money
Training
Ability
Looks like the shoe's gonna fit...
[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 09-13-2001).]
[b] I was refering to the rebels in Afganistan who are trying to fight against the Taliban.
My belif is that many groups around the world are trying to libirate their lands from oppresion, and that we must help them to do so. Their war must become our war if we are to succede. Meerly bombing a country like Afganistan to rubble will only create more hatred twards the U.S, but if we fight alongside those who wish only freedom for their families and their land, then those people will become our allies instead of our enemies. [/b][/quote]
The group you are referring to is the Northern Alliance and there resistance is the main reason that the Taliban is not reconized as the ruling entity of Afganistan.
Yes we could support the rebels against the taliban, but we have to be sure that we aren't just replacing one fanatic group with another. Remember the CIA sent support to Afgainistan during its war with Russia, in effect setting the Taliban up to rule once the war was over.
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
People who would like to read a balanced history of this conflict:
From Beirut to Jerusalem by Thomas Friedman.
A well respected NY Times correspondent.
It opened my eyes.We have no idea about what goes on over there.
Here is the link:
[url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385413726/qid=1000410432/sr=1-15/ref=sc_b_15/002-3996395-4366458"]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385413726/qid=1000410432/sr=1-15/ref=sc_b_15/002-3996395-4366458[/url]
[b]Re: Israel v Palistine
People who would like to read a balanced history of this conflict:
From Beirut to Jerusalem by Thomas Friedman.
A well respected NY Times correspondent.
It opened my eyes.We have no idea about what goes on over there.
Here is the link:
[url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385413726/qid=1000410432/sr=1-15/ref=sc_b_15/002-3996395-4366458"]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385413726/qid=1000410432/sr=1- 15/ref=sc_b_15/002-3996395-4366458[/url]
[/b][/quote]
Thomas Freidman is an excellent reporter (read: he's not the "hard copy" yournalist type you see on TV now adays). I'm planning on adding that to my list.
i saw some photos in the server u posted
but i don´t know wich ones are your and wich of other.
may u set ur photos in other directory pls
and may i send your server address to other people ?.
thanks
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I am almost not able to find the words... what happened is a most tragic terrorist attack. My feelings are with all the victims, their friends and relatives. I was shocked when I saw the pictures on t.v. -- I could not believe that it was reality.
I do not want to start a discussion, nor is it my intend to hurt anyone's feelings. Nevertheless, I want to add something as something to think about: I can understand the fear and anger that this terrible event invokes in many people (I am also affected by that), but I am conviced that revenge and war are the wrong answers. No matter who planned, organized and executed these crimes, any acts of force by the USA (with or without the NATO) without the involvement of the World Security Council and the United Nations Organization will draw the world further into chaos.
I hope that this won't turn into a global war. I hope that we won't see more civil victims.
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We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
I think you're a little late on that one. The US has the full support of the UN and all but a few countries.
I don't know if the following link has already been promoted here: [url="http://www.9-11peace.org/"]http://www.9-11peace.org/[/url]
Have a look at it.
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We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
Revenge is not the goal. Justice is only a small part of the goal.
The goal is to remove the ability of terrorists to accomplish something like this ever again. It means finding existing terrorist organizations and totally destroying them. It means that every government which supports or harbors these organizations must be wiped off the face of the Earth. It also means that any government which is suspected of providing chemical/biological/nuclear weapons to terrorists must change their ways or also be destroyed.
Read Ender's (Orson Scott Card's) take on this at: [url="http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1.html"]http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1.html[/url]
[This message has been edited by emarkp (edited 09-25-2001).]
Okay, all together now.
Revenge is not the goal. Justice is only a small part of the goal.
The goal is to remove the ability of terrorists to accomplish something like this ever again. It means finding existing terrorist organizations and totally destroying them. It means that every government which supports or harbors these organizations must be wiped off the face of the Earth. It also means that any government which is suspected of providing chemical/biological/nuclear weapons to terrorists must change their ways or also be destroyed.
Read Ender's (Orson Scott Card's) take on this at: [url="http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1.html"]http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1.html[/url]
[/quote]
Terrorism is an aggressive and extremist reaction to unsolved problems which have led to a situation which people cannot live with anymore.
If you want to fight terrorism then you should help solving those problems.
A "war against terrorism" (What is that supposed to mean -- terrorism is a concept. Can one fight a concept?) will only lead to the complication of the already existing problems and to the creation of new ones.
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We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
[This message has been edited by Language of Hope (edited 09-26-2001).]
If you want to fight terrorism then you should help solving those problems.[/quote]You're right. If we abandoned Israel and didn't make so much as a peep when the extremists assaulted with everything they had, then we might not have a problem. At least not until they started eyeing the Americas as a target.
[quote]A "war against terrorism" (What is that supposed to mean -- terrorism is a concept. Can one fight a concept?)...[/quote]Oh please. It has a perfectly clear meaning. It is a war on those who perpetrate and support terrorism.
[quote]...will only lead to the complication of the already existing problems and to the creation of new ones.[/quote]Bull. That is not the only possible outcome. We've seen the outcome when we don't address the issue, and it isn't pretty.
[url="http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/soa.htm"]http://www.fas.org/irp/crs/soa.htm[/url]
and this
[url="http://www.soaw.org/home.html"]http://www.soaw.org/home.html[/url]
Is this is a terrorist training camp in the USA ? If it is will it be shut down ? It looks like Congress has tried to shut this down in the past.
but themselves. We must take back this country if we want to win the comming war.
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We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."
[b]Okay, all together now.
Revenge is not the goal. Justice is only a small part of the goal.
The goal is to remove the ability of terrorists to accomplish something like this ever again. It means finding existing terrorist organizations and totally destroying them. It means that every government which supports or harbors these organizations must be wiped off the face of the Earth. It also means that any government which is suspected of providing chemical/biological/nuclear weapons to terrorists must change their ways or also be destroyed.
Read Ender's (Orson Scott Card's) take on this at: [url="http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1.html"]http://www.ornery.org/essays/2001-09-11-1.html[/url]
[This message has been edited by emarkp (edited 09-25-2001).][/b][/quote]
So... the CIA should be totally destroyed and the American Government wiped off the face of the Earth. I agree Mr. emarkp but how? I'm just... (counts fingers) one man -- and I'm Canadian. What weapons will I buy with my Canadian pesos? A McDick's butter knife? Flee the village! And call it a hunch but I don't think we'll get American support on this one. Well... maybe Noam Chomsky. But he's just... (counts fingers) one man. Plus me that makes two. How can... (counts fingers) two men totally destroy the CIA and wipe the American Government off the face of the Earth? Plus, I'm still legally a teen. So that's really... (thinks for a second) one man and one teen. Hey! I've got an idea: YOU CAN JOIN US!!! But that's only... (counts fingers) two men and one teen...
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"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live