now is not the time for anything other than action, innocents die in every conflict.
The important issue is wether those innocents who die are killed with intent.
Terrorists do.
We, as a race, do not.
Thats a very thin line, but it is an important one.
Terrorists rely on our compassion to shield them. They will learn very shortly, I think... that the hostages they take will throw themselves onto the swords at thier backs...
I know a certain aircrew did just that in Pennesylvania...
Please don't quote Nostradamus - he was a complete nutcase, whose jumbled ravings can be interpreted to mean almost anything if you try hard enough. The most amazing thing about coincidence is that it doesn't happen more often. These events are appallingly tragic and utterly surreal, but they were simply the awful work of ruthlessly organised, Evil men. The worst thing people can do now is panic or to lash out, afraid that WW3 is coming.
No weapon can harm the perpetrators of these inhuman outrages, and nothing can bring their victims back to life, so let's all be wary of advocating violence as some sort of solution.
As usual, JMS says it best:
"We've had plenty of experience with sneak attacks. Pearl Harbor, the terrorists' nuking of San Diego, the destruction of our first Mars colony. It's a long and bloody history. Do you know what we learned from it? That a sneak attack is the first resort of a coward."
"To start a war over blood spilled so long ago.. Where does it end? You kill them and take their land. They kill you and take the land back. On and on and on. The cycle of hatred."
"As strong as you think you are, the one thing you can't stop is the lone gunman determined to kill you, even if he gets killed in the process."
"...they will do all that they can to destroy us, until the Universe itself decays and collapses. If the Narns all stood together in one place and hated, all at the same time, that hatred could fly across dozens of light-years and reduce Centauri Prime to a ball of ash. That's how much they hate us."
"You don't have to respond in kind."
"Of course we do. There's a natural law. Physics tells us that for every action there must be an equal and opposite reaction. They hate us, we hate them, they hate us back. And so, here we are: victims of mathematics."
"I don't understand."
"Because you have let them distract you. Blind you with hate. You cannot see the battle for what it is. We are fighting to save one another, we must realize we are not alone. We rise and fall together. And some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be saved. Because, if we fail in this, then none of us will be saved. And the Narn will be only a memory."
"Every day, here and at home, we are warned about the enemy. But who is the enemy? Is it the alien? Well, we are all alien to one another. Is it the one who believes differently than we do? No, not at all, my friends. The enemy is fear. The enemy is ignorance. The enemy is the one who tells you that you must hate that which is different. Because, in the end, that hate will turn on you. And that same hate will destroy you."
"All around us, it was as if the universe were holding its breath, waiting. All of life can be broken down into moments of transition or moments... of revelation. This had the feeling of both."
"G'Quon wrote: 'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against Chaos and Despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
------------------
[i]"We could barely stop Sierra. How do we stop them and Havas?"
'I don't know. All I know is that unless you do stop them it won't
matter who wins and who loses because none of us, not a single world
in 70 light years in any direction will live to see a better game.'
"Win or lose, we'll go down fighting. Pour it on, Mr. Lennier.
Bring us 'Into the Fire'."[/i]
Words cannot express our feelings as my wife and I watched live as the second plane rammed Tower 2. Until that point, we thought we were seeing a nasty aviation accident, the thought of terrorism still distant. With the sight of a large plane ramming the second tower, I knew it was a terrorist attack.
We watched from her hospital room until she was taken to surgery. We both saw the collapses of the towers at the second they occurred.
Words cannot describe the rage I feel toward those responsible for this atrocity. Only in the realms of fiction has a single act caused so much death.
I felt anger when I saw the West Bank Palestinians celebrating in the streets. I felt disbelief when I saw they were celebrating the deaths of thousands of Americans while driving Ford vans! I felt shame when I fervently wished to see them all killed by carpet bombing, every single one celebrating.
I felt strangely let down by the totally vapid and uninspired speech given by Shrub. He is not a leader. I just hope his leash holders are better able to cope with this than he can. Six minutes is not enough time to be the voice of leadership in a crisis.
I do not care if the retaliation for this act is swift. I do care that it is accurate. I care that it is inevitable. Evidence already begins to flow in....
Each tower typically held 10,000 employees and up to 5000 visitors during business hours. There is no way that any of those people above the impact points had any realistic chance to survive. There were typically 50,000 people working in the WTC complex, as well as 90,000 in the immediate area. These figures give a rough estimate of 10,000-15,000 dead in the towers alone, with many more casualties among the people below. More will have problems due to the asbestos insulation covering a major portion of the city.
The terrorists timed this in a very deliberate fashion. I wish to see them destroyed in an equally deliberate fashion, for if we do not eliminate them, they will kill again and again and again....
------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
It seems a new clause will soon be added to the Articles of War, making accessory to or harbouring terrorism an act of war. Interesting in a morbid sense.. this could be a time of living history...
If we survive.
------------------
There are 3 things in life I never forget: my friends, my enemies, and my access codes.
Never put gasoline in a fire extinguisher.
"No government, no dictator can hold an imprisioned population by force of arms forever. There is no power in the universe greater than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies [i]cannot stand[/i]." - G'Kar, [i]The Long Twighlight Struggle[/i]
There will be war that comes out of this, too many people lost their lives. It is a sad sad day [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/frown.gif[/img] [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/frown.gif[/img]
Atleast the world governments are finally united against the evil that is Terrorism...
Just to quote a guy on British TV at the moment, who's talking about terrorists, and the 5 suspects and trying to find them, he's comparing it to finding a needle in a haystack and said..
"Don't try and find the needle, take out the haystack"
-------------------
I have seen the future, and it was dark
and then I took my shades off...
--
Only the insane have strength enough to prosper,
Only those that prosper truly judge what is sane.
My thoughts and prayers go out to all the families that have been tragically touched by these despicable events. Words cannot express the shock, horror and sadness I feel at this.
I heard about it on radio and seen the second plane hit on tv, this so seriously sucks [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/frown.gif[/img]
Any group that has members willing to fly planes into buildings for a "cause" deserve to be bomb with no mercy [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/mad.gif[/img]
A very sad day for the human race....
[This message has been edited by The Master (edited 09-12-2001).]
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Well, something like 20 hours after it happened, I'm finally capable of talking again. But not about this. Not yet. I'm still too shocked.
I always wanted to go see the World Trade Center towers. It was one of the many things I wanted to do in life. And now they are gone, I'll never see them.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[quote]Originally posted by Falcon1:
[b]New York will never be the same again.[/b][/quote]
Not meaning to sound callous, but ignoring the fact that nothing is ever the same as it was in any specific instant in time, sure it will be. A few months or so after we figure out who did it and we lob a few score cruise missiles and airstrikes their way, things will be the same again. We'll forget any lessons we learned and will set ourselves up for the next terrorist strike. We didn't learn from Lebanon and all the Marines lost, we didn't learn from Sudan, the first World Trade Center bombing, the bombing of our destroyer and we didn't learn from Oklahoma city. Our on-scene human intelligence is still drastically underfunded and undersupported and we still don't take the threat seriously enough.
[quote]Originally posted by Santiago:
[b]I also don't see anyone telling them to STFU and go back inside.
Their innaction condones the actions of those many.
I have no sympathy anymore for the palastinians with their little war with Israel. I say sell Israel even more weapons now. No condemnations for brutal israeli tactics, praise them!
If the intent of the Palastinian chearing was to destroy whatever support they had left here in the US, they have succeeded wonderfully![/b][/quote]
Friend, I see it nearly impossible for you to see this diabolical act of terrorism from the Palestinian POV given your understandably agitated condition. However, bear with me. You see the Palestinians work and think on a different level than you and I. That is to say, everyday is a fight for survival for them. Every day their women live in fear of rape by Israeli soldiers and, consequentially, ritual suicide. Every day the the children live in fear yet more of their sisters/brothers, uncles/aunts and friends will be killed by Israeli forces. Every day the men and their teenage sons worry that their family and friends will succumb to the myriad of perils which plague their people. Disease, starvation, and the scurge that is the military arm of Israel were/are in the fore-front of their thoughts EVERY DAY. As such they don't really care much about the go-nowhere-do-nothing-wishy-washy nature of politics, diplomacy, and peaceful reform because they don't have long to live before something/someone gets 'em. They want ACTION and they want VENGEANCE taken against that deliberately annihilating them and they want it NOW. Sound familiar? If it doesn't, it sure sounds like a nation which, metaphorically in a symbolic nature, has just been slapped in the face and kicked in the nuts. They don't care that a moderately persuasive voice or two in a pool of 300 000 000 is against Israel's barbaric treatment of Palestinians. They don't care that the last American president made an unimpassioned push for peace with no threat of military action, attempting to be remembered for something other than his dick. They only care that America, infamous for its imperialism, slavery, and showy culture (whether accurate or not) is selling weapons to the people destroying their homes, raping their women, and driving them further towards the brink of annihilation in what is, on the behalf of Israel's military: "state-wide terrorism". Given this, it is quite easy to see that they view America's aid to Israel as we view the Taliban's aid to Bin Laden. And it is quite easy to see that they take the same position you do: that because people surrounding Israel/Bin Laden in this case do not deal with them, that they American/Taliban nation deserve little to no quarter.
------------------
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-12-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-12-2001).]
[quote]Originally posted by JohnD:
[b] Not meaning to sound callous, but ignoring the fact that nothing is ever the same as it was in any specific instant in time, sure it will be. A few months or so after we figure out who did it and we lob a few score cruise missiles and airstrikes their way, things will be the same again. We'll forget any lessons we learned and will set ourselves up for the next terrorist strike. We didn't learn from Lebanon and all the Marines lost, we didn't learn from Sudan, the first World Trade Center bombing, the bombing of our destroyer and we didn't learn from Oklahoma city. Our on-scene human intelligence is still drastically underfunded and undersupported and we still don't take the threat seriously enough.[/b][/quote]
I think this one will hit home more though... the sheer scale of it for one, the attack on the building before was bad but in many ways minor, the attack on the cruiser was surprising... and you are correct, the US government failed to learn that from these attacks. Unfortunately its only when bad things happen that people stand up and take notice. I think this time people will take notice for quite some time. For one the American people will start, I believe, to question their governments foreign policy. This needed to be long ago. I won't go into details or examples as I haven't got all the facts, but the blind military support of Isreal, which is the oppressor is just stupid. America prides itself on democrary, yet spends billions sending military aid to allow the Israeli's to maintain a campaign of terror against the Palestinians. Israel has to stop, and America has to stop taking such an anti Islamic stance. Don't get me wrong, I have no respect for Islamic fundamentalists... unfortunatley, Islamic fundamentalism is a reaction against American and European foreign policy. Iran had a democracy and look at it now... Iraq was a British protectorate and look at it now... the Taliban were assisted by the CIA during the Russian occupation and look at what they've become...
If the US government cannot learn from their mistakes, then this cycle will continue for along time. I just hope for the worlds sake that they do learn and fast.
------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]B5 site[/url].
Ya' know, and don't laugh, according to Age of Empires II the Arab nations, collectively known as Saracens, were once a cultured and honorable people. Then the Crusaders came, who were not cultured and honorable so the Saracens formed a jihad and became "Crusaders" themselves - Muslim Crusaders. Since, it's been a contest in Muslim and Christian locations where they co-exist(?), e.g. planet Earth, of who can fight the dirtiest. My vote goes to the West 'cause, shucks, they've had AT LEAST three more centuries of experience. In fact they're so sneaky and underhanded their own trainees turn on them.
All sarcasm aside, the Crusades are when it all began and we're merely receiving what our ancestors' dished out a thousand years ago.
****Note: I am not a Saracen.
------------------
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-12-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-12-2001).]
You may or may not be aware of some of the rumours and theories regarding the Flight 93 crash.
[b]Facts:[/b]
= Flight 93 crashes, with the loss of 45 lives, approx 2 hours (?) after first plane impact.
= A Cell phone call from the plane provides information that the plane was indeed being hijacked.
=This call also notes the presence of white smoke around the aircraft before impact.
= A marine spokesman stated that the aircrafts target may have been camp david.
[b]Opinions:[/b]
= It was suggested by a terrorism expert that the terrorists may have instructed the pilots to take them to "x" city/airport. Then take over the controls for the final approach (a task that unfortunately does not require extensive knowledge of flying).
= At the time of the hijacking of flight 93, all air traffic was being shut down. The pilots would have been aware of at least the two WTC crashes (with their terrorist involvement).
= The ability of a passenger on this flight to make a cellphone call suggests the hijackers did not have complete control of the passengers/crew.
[b]Theories:[/b]
It appears entirely reasonable for the pilots to attempt to stop a further terrorist attack at the cost of their lives.
Having spoken to a friend of mine who is a pilot, I asked him to identify the possible sources of 'white smoke' on an aircraft.
He spoke of 3:
High altitude contrails.
Engine fire extinguishers.
Wing vortexes with condensing water vapour.
The aircraft was at low altitude, with no reports of fire. Wing vortex trails (This can be caused by rapid altitude loss, as H20 vapour transits from high pressure below the wing, to very low above), can produce an effect akin to white smoke.
Since the hijackers would be likely to react to any attempt to deliberately crash the plane prematurely, I further asked him how it would be possible to make a plane unflyable by unskilled operators, in a matter of seconds.
He responded by detailing the effects of elevator trim on flight profile. I will summarise.
The purpose of trim is to maintain a suitable flight profile while keeping the elevater centered to allow maximum control responsiveness. By setting the trim to 'maximum down', stick controls alone are insufficient to raise the nose. Until the trim is reset, the plane will nose down.
He explained that by setting the trim down, shutting down all engines, and pushing forward on the control yoke; a novice could not recover the plane.
- Engine resarts are complicated, and require time.
- The trim controls are not immediately obvious.
- A novice may focus on attempting to pull up the nose on the control yoke, not realising these other problems.
I sincrely hope that 45 people did not die for nothing. Despite the destruction of so much, and so many lives lost, human nature lives - nurtured by acts of selfless courage.
[quote]
Friend, I see it nearly impossible for you to see this diabolical act of terrorism from the Palestinian POV given your understandably agitated condition. However, bear with me. You see the Palestinians work and think on a different level than you and I. That is to say, everyday is a fight for survival for them. Every day their women live in fear of rape by Israeli soldiers and, consequentially, ritual suicide. Every day the the children live in fear yet more of their sisters/brothers, uncles/aunts and friends will be killed by Israeli forces. Every day the men and their teenage sons worry that their family and friends will succumb to the myriad of perils which plague their people. Disease, starvation, and the scurge that is the military arm of Israel were/are in the fore-front of their thoughts EVERY DAY. As such they don't really care much about the go-nowhere-do-nothing-wishy-washy nature of politics, diplomacy, and peaceful reform because they don't have long to live before something/someone gets 'em. They want ACTION and they want VENGEANCE taken against that deliberately annihilating them and they want it NOW. Sound familiar? If it doesn't, it sure sounds like a nation which, metaphorically in a symbolic nature, has just been slapped in the face and kicked in the nuts. They don't care that a moderately persuasive voice or two in a pool of 300 000 000 is against Israel's barbaric treatment of Palestinians. They don't care that the last American president made an unimpassioned push for peace with no threat of military action, attempting to be remembered for something other than his dick. They only care that America, infamous for its imperialism, slavery, and showy culture (whether accurate or not) is selling weapons to the people destroying their homes, raping their women, and driving them further towards the brink of annihilation in what is, on the behalf of Israel's military: "state-wide terrorism". Given this, it is quite easy to see that they view America's aid to Israel as we view the Taliban's aid to Bin Laden. And it is quite easy to see that they take the same position you do: that because people surrounding Israel/Bin Laden in this case do not deal with them, that they American/Taliban nation deserve little to no quarter
[/quote]
Actually I can completly understand the Palistinian POV in this. What I can not understand is why someone (Palistinian) would see how detonating a suicide bomb outside a school when children are leaving would in any way help prevent this instead of causing more of the same. Isreal is defending itself against terroism, not trying to annihialate a people. We will do the same.
My prayers go out to all those who died in these tragedies and their families.
Find who is responsible for it. Make sure it is accurate information, and make it so that they and any who help them understand the depth of their error. Show them why the USA is the strongest country on Earth. I do not wish any innocents to die. But if a state deliberately helps anyone who commits an act of terrorism, that state is as guilty as the ones who comit the act. No state can survive without at least the passive support of it's people.
I am absolutly enraged.
Now I can understand why Isreal takes the stance they take. The Palastinians do not target any military targets. They target civilians. I do not agree with Isreals stances on the settlements, but they do need to defend a civilian population.
Anyone who would like to flame me for the position I am taking, until yesterday I could not understand why Isreal took the steps it did. I saw them as excessive. Now I understand.
------------------
Dedicated to all the people who predicted that the Babylon Project would fail in its mission. Faith Manages.
G'Quon wrote, 'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'
There are two things that dictate that actions, violent actions, MUST be taken.
1) Blood calls out for blood. This was a deliberate attack on the US people. Not the country, not the policy makers, not those responcible for for our actions in other nations, but the people, those what were innocent of any kind of transgression. For that, I have no pitty or mercy in my soul for those who commited these acts, no matter what their resoning for it. ....no pitty, no mercy.
2) A messege must me sent. Sent to all those who would strike out against the US people. To all those who would consider performing simmilar acts against this nation and it's people. A messege that will not soon be forgotten. A messege that says to the world "Don't **** with the US".
I have never been one to truely advocate violence. But there are some actions, to which there is no other recourse but to respond in kind. This is one of those situations. I am not asking for a holy, self riteous crusade where the streets run red with the blood of those responcible. But I am asking that SOME action be taken. We cannot sit idly by and allow this deliberate act of war agains the US people....to go unanswered.
Nor should we forget the cost of yesterdays events. Some will call out for rebuilding, to heal the wounds. But the wound is such that I do not think it will ever fully heal. And like those soldiers that payed with their lives in our wars, the civilians who were the targets of yesterdays attacks should also be remembered. I propose that the towers NOT be rebuilt. I propose that on the site of those towers that were the targets, that we erect a pair of six+ foot tall black marble obelisks. And on them, we enscribe the names of all those who perished yesterday. One on the site of each tower. We should do this so that the lessons of yesterdays events are not forgotten. So that those that come after us, remember what complacency brings.
I will not go into a lengthy discourse here, but I will say this:
If a group of people are being attacked by a military enemy, then it is the military enemy they should respond to.
Car bombing cafe's, schools with children, killing innocent people in buildings of commerce by flying a commercial plane into it, are all acts of a coward.
I'll say it here. Bin Laden is a pussy!
Attacking the USS Cole was about the closest thing he did that came to honor, but not quite.
Let's see him take up a gun and face an American soldier face to face, then maybe I'll listen to what he has to say.
:X
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
All terrorists are insane fanatics who will do anything that their leader tells them is good for their "cause". The leaders themselves are wimps who no of no way to fight honourably and so have to attack weak targets like civilians.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
I agree totaly, I just hope in our search for vengance we do not go too far and become as bad as those who did this.
I think what the U.S should do is declare war against terrorism on an international level. But at the same time recruit and fight along side people in countries like afganistan that are trying to build freedom. The terrorists who do these cowardly acts are extreemist, and in many cases do not speak for the majority of the population, they twist a good and decent religion for their own glory and power. Americans should ban together with ordinary people all over the world to eradicate this cancer from our planet. We must declare in a unified voice of hope, that we will not be afraid, we will fight, and we will prevail.
If such a thing occurs I will glady voluteer, and put my life on the line to protect the dreams of freedom, not just for America but for humanity.
------------------
We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."
[quote]Originally posted by Rick:
[b]Sanfam-- where are you right now?
-Rick[/b][/quote]
I am at home, in the middle of Long Island. I snapped as many photos as I could yesterday. Such a strong impact on everyone. THe entire thing was so horrible. When I got home on the bus, I could see the cloud.
I'm currently preparing my web server to be a mirror for the pictures I've gathered.
[url="http://sanfam.dyndns.org:8080/DSC01774.JPG"]http://sanfam.dyndns.org:8080/DSC01774.JPG[/url]
That's what I saw a few hours later. It was abot half the size of when I first saw it. One can barely visualize it.
Below is the most complete summary of images available of the mahem on the net.
If Pearl Harbor's call was "Never Forget", Black Tuesday's will certanly be "Always Remember."
[url="http://www.geocities.com/wtc_destruction/"]http://www.geocities.com/wtc_destruction/[/url]
I have dozens more not listed there. I'll email the host. But does anyone ahve a thumbnail program? If not, i'm simply going to posta page full of images, just like that.
[quote]Originally posted by Falcon1:
[b]I think this one will hit home more though... the sheer scale of it for one[/b][/quote]
IMO, a few years down the road, the country will be just as lax as it is now in maintaining security. That's the pattern we've shown throughout history.
[quote][b]and you are correct, the US government failed to learn that from these attacks.[/b][/quote]
The American people failed to learn from any of the attacks, either.
[quote][b]the blind military support of Isreal, which is the oppressor is just stupid. America prides itself on democrary, yet spends billions sending military aid to allow the Israeli's to maintain a campaign of terror against the Palestinians.[/b][/quote]
You mean like how the Palestinans maintain a campaign of terror against Israeli men, women and children? Calling Israel the oppressor is a bit...off. Granted, they aren't the most diplomatic country, but we would be just as bad, if not worse, if we were surrounded by hostile powers and under constant attack from terrorists and a war what, every five or ten years, the odds always against them?
[quote]Originally posted by TheEXone:
[b]I agree totaly, I just hope in our search for vengance we do not go too far and become as bad as those who did this.
[/quote][/b]
I am not condoning vengeance, either. I merely seek the extermination of the vermin who could do things like this.
[quote][b]
But at the same time recruit and fight along side people in countries like afganistan that are trying to build freedom.
[/quote][/b]
If you think Afghanistan's government is trying to build freedom, you've got some research to do. Try looking up women's rights, the Taliban, and stoned to death. Afghanistan is one of the least free nations in the world. Their government is extremely oppressive, extremist, and guilty of sheltering terrorist kingpin Osama Bin Laden.
------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
Comments
[b] How many more innocents will be lost in this blind pursuit for revenge. [/b][/quote]
Our innocence is forever lost with this tragedy........
The important issue is wether those innocents who die are killed with intent.
Terrorists do.
We, as a race, do not.
Thats a very thin line, but it is an important one.
Terrorists rely on our compassion to shield them. They will learn very shortly, I think... that the hostages they take will throw themselves onto the swords at thier backs...
I know a certain aircrew did just that in Pennesylvania...
No weapon can harm the perpetrators of these inhuman outrages, and nothing can bring their victims back to life, so let's all be wary of advocating violence as some sort of solution.
As usual, JMS says it best:
"We've had plenty of experience with sneak attacks. Pearl Harbor, the terrorists' nuking of San Diego, the destruction of our first Mars colony. It's a long and bloody history. Do you know what we learned from it? That a sneak attack is the first resort of a coward."
"To start a war over blood spilled so long ago.. Where does it end? You kill them and take their land. They kill you and take the land back. On and on and on. The cycle of hatred."
"As strong as you think you are, the one thing you can't stop is the lone gunman determined to kill you, even if he gets killed in the process."
"...they will do all that they can to destroy us, until the Universe itself decays and collapses. If the Narns all stood together in one place and hated, all at the same time, that hatred could fly across dozens of light-years and reduce Centauri Prime to a ball of ash. That's how much they hate us."
"You don't have to respond in kind."
"Of course we do. There's a natural law. Physics tells us that for every action there must be an equal and opposite reaction. They hate us, we hate them, they hate us back. And so, here we are: victims of mathematics."
"I don't understand."
"Because you have let them distract you. Blind you with hate. You cannot see the battle for what it is. We are fighting to save one another, we must realize we are not alone. We rise and fall together. And some of us must be sacrificed if all are to be saved. Because, if we fail in this, then none of us will be saved. And the Narn will be only a memory."
"Every day, here and at home, we are warned about the enemy. But who is the enemy? Is it the alien? Well, we are all alien to one another. Is it the one who believes differently than we do? No, not at all, my friends. The enemy is fear. The enemy is ignorance. The enemy is the one who tells you that you must hate that which is different. Because, in the end, that hate will turn on you. And that same hate will destroy you."
"All around us, it was as if the universe were holding its breath, waiting. All of life can be broken down into moments of transition or moments... of revelation. This had the feeling of both."
"G'Quon wrote: 'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against Chaos and Despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
------------------
[i]"We could barely stop Sierra. How do we stop them and Havas?"
'I don't know. All I know is that unless you do stop them it won't
matter who wins and who loses because none of us, not a single world
in 70 light years in any direction will live to see a better game.'
"Win or lose, we'll go down fighting. Pour it on, Mr. Lennier.
Bring us 'Into the Fire'."[/i]
We watched from her hospital room until she was taken to surgery. We both saw the collapses of the towers at the second they occurred.
Words cannot describe the rage I feel toward those responsible for this atrocity. Only in the realms of fiction has a single act caused so much death.
I felt anger when I saw the West Bank Palestinians celebrating in the streets. I felt disbelief when I saw they were celebrating the deaths of thousands of Americans while driving Ford vans! I felt shame when I fervently wished to see them all killed by carpet bombing, every single one celebrating.
I felt strangely let down by the totally vapid and uninspired speech given by Shrub. He is not a leader. I just hope his leash holders are better able to cope with this than he can. Six minutes is not enough time to be the voice of leadership in a crisis.
I do not care if the retaliation for this act is swift. I do care that it is accurate. I care that it is inevitable. Evidence already begins to flow in....
Each tower typically held 10,000 employees and up to 5000 visitors during business hours. There is no way that any of those people above the impact points had any realistic chance to survive. There were typically 50,000 people working in the WTC complex, as well as 90,000 in the immediate area. These figures give a rough estimate of 10,000-15,000 dead in the towers alone, with many more casualties among the people below. More will have problems due to the asbestos insulation covering a major portion of the city.
The terrorists timed this in a very deliberate fashion. I wish to see them destroyed in an equally deliberate fashion, for if we do not eliminate them, they will kill again and again and again....
------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
"Never start a fight, but by God, finish one!"
------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"
If we survive.
------------------
There are 3 things in life I never forget: my friends, my enemies, and my access codes.
Never put gasoline in a fire extinguisher.
"No government, no dictator can hold an imprisioned population by force of arms forever. There is no power in the universe greater than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies [i]cannot stand[/i]." - G'Kar, [i]The Long Twighlight Struggle[/i]
[url="http://www.globalserve.net/~archons"]www.globalserve.net/~archons[/url]
Atleast the world governments are finally united against the evil that is Terrorism...
"Don't try and find the needle, take out the haystack"
-------------------
I have seen the future, and it was dark
and then I took my shades off...
--
Only the insane have strength enough to prosper,
Only those that prosper truly judge what is sane.
May they rest in peace.
Gopher
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Is this it?
Any group that has members willing to fly planes into buildings for a "cause" deserve to be bomb with no mercy [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/mad.gif[/img]
A very sad day for the human race....
[This message has been edited by The Master (edited 09-12-2001).]
I always wanted to go see the World Trade Center towers. It was one of the many things I wanted to do in life. And now they are gone, I'll never see them.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]B5 site[/url].
[b]New York will never be the same again.[/b][/quote]
Not meaning to sound callous, but ignoring the fact that nothing is ever the same as it was in any specific instant in time, sure it will be. A few months or so after we figure out who did it and we lob a few score cruise missiles and airstrikes their way, things will be the same again. We'll forget any lessons we learned and will set ourselves up for the next terrorist strike. We didn't learn from Lebanon and all the Marines lost, we didn't learn from Sudan, the first World Trade Center bombing, the bombing of our destroyer and we didn't learn from Oklahoma city. Our on-scene human intelligence is still drastically underfunded and undersupported and we still don't take the threat seriously enough.
[b]I also don't see anyone telling them to STFU and go back inside.
Their innaction condones the actions of those many.
I have no sympathy anymore for the palastinians with their little war with Israel. I say sell Israel even more weapons now. No condemnations for brutal israeli tactics, praise them!
If the intent of the Palastinian chearing was to destroy whatever support they had left here in the US, they have succeeded wonderfully![/b][/quote]
Friend, I see it nearly impossible for you to see this diabolical act of terrorism from the Palestinian POV given your understandably agitated condition. However, bear with me. You see the Palestinians work and think on a different level than you and I. That is to say, everyday is a fight for survival for them. Every day their women live in fear of rape by Israeli soldiers and, consequentially, ritual suicide. Every day the the children live in fear yet more of their sisters/brothers, uncles/aunts and friends will be killed by Israeli forces. Every day the men and their teenage sons worry that their family and friends will succumb to the myriad of perils which plague their people. Disease, starvation, and the scurge that is the military arm of Israel were/are in the fore-front of their thoughts EVERY DAY. As such they don't really care much about the go-nowhere-do-nothing-wishy-washy nature of politics, diplomacy, and peaceful reform because they don't have long to live before something/someone gets 'em. They want ACTION and they want VENGEANCE taken against that deliberately annihilating them and they want it NOW. Sound familiar? If it doesn't, it sure sounds like a nation which, metaphorically in a symbolic nature, has just been slapped in the face and kicked in the nuts. They don't care that a moderately persuasive voice or two in a pool of 300 000 000 is against Israel's barbaric treatment of Palestinians. They don't care that the last American president made an unimpassioned push for peace with no threat of military action, attempting to be remembered for something other than his dick. They only care that America, infamous for its imperialism, slavery, and showy culture (whether accurate or not) is selling weapons to the people destroying their homes, raping their women, and driving them further towards the brink of annihilation in what is, on the behalf of Israel's military: "state-wide terrorism". Given this, it is quite easy to see that they view America's aid to Israel as we view the Taliban's aid to Bin Laden. And it is quite easy to see that they take the same position you do: that because people surrounding Israel/Bin Laden in this case do not deal with them, that they American/Taliban nation deserve little to no quarter.
------------------
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-12-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-12-2001).]
[b] Not meaning to sound callous, but ignoring the fact that nothing is ever the same as it was in any specific instant in time, sure it will be. A few months or so after we figure out who did it and we lob a few score cruise missiles and airstrikes their way, things will be the same again. We'll forget any lessons we learned and will set ourselves up for the next terrorist strike. We didn't learn from Lebanon and all the Marines lost, we didn't learn from Sudan, the first World Trade Center bombing, the bombing of our destroyer and we didn't learn from Oklahoma city. Our on-scene human intelligence is still drastically underfunded and undersupported and we still don't take the threat seriously enough.[/b][/quote]
I think this one will hit home more though... the sheer scale of it for one, the attack on the building before was bad but in many ways minor, the attack on the cruiser was surprising... and you are correct, the US government failed to learn that from these attacks. Unfortunately its only when bad things happen that people stand up and take notice. I think this time people will take notice for quite some time. For one the American people will start, I believe, to question their governments foreign policy. This needed to be long ago. I won't go into details or examples as I haven't got all the facts, but the blind military support of Isreal, which is the oppressor is just stupid. America prides itself on democrary, yet spends billions sending military aid to allow the Israeli's to maintain a campaign of terror against the Palestinians. Israel has to stop, and America has to stop taking such an anti Islamic stance. Don't get me wrong, I have no respect for Islamic fundamentalists... unfortunatley, Islamic fundamentalism is a reaction against American and European foreign policy. Iran had a democracy and look at it now... Iraq was a British protectorate and look at it now... the Taliban were assisted by the CIA during the Russian occupation and look at what they've become...
If the US government cannot learn from their mistakes, then this cycle will continue for along time. I just hope for the worlds sake that they do learn and fast.
------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]B5 site[/url].
All sarcasm aside, the Crusades are when it all began and we're merely receiving what our ancestors' dished out a thousand years ago.
****Note: I am not a Saracen.
------------------
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-12-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 09-12-2001).]
------------------
'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]B5 site[/url].
[b]Facts:[/b]
= Flight 93 crashes, with the loss of 45 lives, approx 2 hours (?) after first plane impact.
= A Cell phone call from the plane provides information that the plane was indeed being hijacked.
=This call also notes the presence of white smoke around the aircraft before impact.
= A marine spokesman stated that the aircrafts target may have been camp david.
[b]Opinions:[/b]
= It was suggested by a terrorism expert that the terrorists may have instructed the pilots to take them to "x" city/airport. Then take over the controls for the final approach (a task that unfortunately does not require extensive knowledge of flying).
= At the time of the hijacking of flight 93, all air traffic was being shut down. The pilots would have been aware of at least the two WTC crashes (with their terrorist involvement).
= The ability of a passenger on this flight to make a cellphone call suggests the hijackers did not have complete control of the passengers/crew.
[b]Theories:[/b]
It appears entirely reasonable for the pilots to attempt to stop a further terrorist attack at the cost of their lives.
Having spoken to a friend of mine who is a pilot, I asked him to identify the possible sources of 'white smoke' on an aircraft.
He spoke of 3:
High altitude contrails.
Engine fire extinguishers.
Wing vortexes with condensing water vapour.
The aircraft was at low altitude, with no reports of fire. Wing vortex trails (This can be caused by rapid altitude loss, as H20 vapour transits from high pressure below the wing, to very low above), can produce an effect akin to white smoke.
Since the hijackers would be likely to react to any attempt to deliberately crash the plane prematurely, I further asked him how it would be possible to make a plane unflyable by unskilled operators, in a matter of seconds.
He responded by detailing the effects of elevator trim on flight profile. I will summarise.
The purpose of trim is to maintain a suitable flight profile while keeping the elevater centered to allow maximum control responsiveness. By setting the trim to 'maximum down', stick controls alone are insufficient to raise the nose. Until the trim is reset, the plane will nose down.
He explained that by setting the trim down, shutting down all engines, and pushing forward on the control yoke; a novice could not recover the plane.
- Engine resarts are complicated, and require time.
- The trim controls are not immediately obvious.
- A novice may focus on attempting to pull up the nose on the control yoke, not realising these other problems.
I sincrely hope that 45 people did not die for nothing. Despite the destruction of so much, and so many lives lost, human nature lives - nurtured by acts of selfless courage.
Friend, I see it nearly impossible for you to see this diabolical act of terrorism from the Palestinian POV given your understandably agitated condition. However, bear with me. You see the Palestinians work and think on a different level than you and I. That is to say, everyday is a fight for survival for them. Every day their women live in fear of rape by Israeli soldiers and, consequentially, ritual suicide. Every day the the children live in fear yet more of their sisters/brothers, uncles/aunts and friends will be killed by Israeli forces. Every day the men and their teenage sons worry that their family and friends will succumb to the myriad of perils which plague their people. Disease, starvation, and the scurge that is the military arm of Israel were/are in the fore-front of their thoughts EVERY DAY. As such they don't really care much about the go-nowhere-do-nothing-wishy-washy nature of politics, diplomacy, and peaceful reform because they don't have long to live before something/someone gets 'em. They want ACTION and they want VENGEANCE taken against that deliberately annihilating them and they want it NOW. Sound familiar? If it doesn't, it sure sounds like a nation which, metaphorically in a symbolic nature, has just been slapped in the face and kicked in the nuts. They don't care that a moderately persuasive voice or two in a pool of 300 000 000 is against Israel's barbaric treatment of Palestinians. They don't care that the last American president made an unimpassioned push for peace with no threat of military action, attempting to be remembered for something other than his dick. They only care that America, infamous for its imperialism, slavery, and showy culture (whether accurate or not) is selling weapons to the people destroying their homes, raping their women, and driving them further towards the brink of annihilation in what is, on the behalf of Israel's military: "state-wide terrorism". Given this, it is quite easy to see that they view America's aid to Israel as we view the Taliban's aid to Bin Laden. And it is quite easy to see that they take the same position you do: that because people surrounding Israel/Bin Laden in this case do not deal with them, that they American/Taliban nation deserve little to no quarter
[/quote]
Actually I can completly understand the Palistinian POV in this. What I can not understand is why someone (Palistinian) would see how detonating a suicide bomb outside a school when children are leaving would in any way help prevent this instead of causing more of the same. Isreal is defending itself against terroism, not trying to annihialate a people. We will do the same.
My prayers go out to all those who died in these tragedies and their families.
Find who is responsible for it. Make sure it is accurate information, and make it so that they and any who help them understand the depth of their error. Show them why the USA is the strongest country on Earth. I do not wish any innocents to die. But if a state deliberately helps anyone who commits an act of terrorism, that state is as guilty as the ones who comit the act. No state can survive without at least the passive support of it's people.
I am absolutly enraged.
Now I can understand why Isreal takes the stance they take. The Palastinians do not target any military targets. They target civilians. I do not agree with Isreals stances on the settlements, but they do need to defend a civilian population.
Anyone who would like to flame me for the position I am taking, until yesterday I could not understand why Isreal took the steps it did. I saw them as excessive. Now I understand.
------------------
Dedicated to all the people who predicted that the Babylon Project would fail in its mission. Faith Manages.
G'Quon wrote, 'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'
1) Blood calls out for blood. This was a deliberate attack on the US people. Not the country, not the policy makers, not those responcible for for our actions in other nations, but the people, those what were innocent of any kind of transgression. For that, I have no pitty or mercy in my soul for those who commited these acts, no matter what their resoning for it. ....no pitty, no mercy.
2) A messege must me sent. Sent to all those who would strike out against the US people. To all those who would consider performing simmilar acts against this nation and it's people. A messege that will not soon be forgotten. A messege that says to the world "Don't **** with the US".
I have never been one to truely advocate violence. But there are some actions, to which there is no other recourse but to respond in kind. This is one of those situations. I am not asking for a holy, self riteous crusade where the streets run red with the blood of those responcible. But I am asking that SOME action be taken. We cannot sit idly by and allow this deliberate act of war agains the US people....to go unanswered.
Nor should we forget the cost of yesterdays events. Some will call out for rebuilding, to heal the wounds. But the wound is such that I do not think it will ever fully heal. And like those soldiers that payed with their lives in our wars, the civilians who were the targets of yesterdays attacks should also be remembered. I propose that the towers NOT be rebuilt. I propose that on the site of those towers that were the targets, that we erect a pair of six+ foot tall black marble obelisks. And on them, we enscribe the names of all those who perished yesterday. One on the site of each tower. We should do this so that the lessons of yesterdays events are not forgotten. So that those that come after us, remember what complacency brings.
If a group of people are being attacked by a military enemy, then it is the military enemy they should respond to.
Car bombing cafe's, schools with children, killing innocent people in buildings of commerce by flying a commercial plane into it, are all acts of a coward.
I'll say it here. Bin Laden is a pussy!
Attacking the USS Cole was about the closest thing he did that came to honor, but not quite.
Let's see him take up a gun and face an American soldier face to face, then maybe I'll listen to what he has to say.
:X
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
I think what the U.S should do is declare war against terrorism on an international level. But at the same time recruit and fight along side people in countries like afganistan that are trying to build freedom. The terrorists who do these cowardly acts are extreemist, and in many cases do not speak for the majority of the population, they twist a good and decent religion for their own glory and power. Americans should ban together with ordinary people all over the world to eradicate this cancer from our planet. We must declare in a unified voice of hope, that we will not be afraid, we will fight, and we will prevail.
If such a thing occurs I will glady voluteer, and put my life on the line to protect the dreams of freedom, not just for America but for humanity.
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We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.
"Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."
[b]Sanfam-- where are you right now?
-Rick[/b][/quote]
I am at home, in the middle of Long Island. I snapped as many photos as I could yesterday. Such a strong impact on everyone. THe entire thing was so horrible. When I got home on the bus, I could see the cloud.
I'm currently preparing my web server to be a mirror for the pictures I've gathered.
[url="http://sanfam.dyndns.org:8080/DSC01774.JPG"]http://sanfam.dyndns.org:8080/DSC01774.JPG[/url]
That's what I saw a few hours later. It was abot half the size of when I first saw it. One can barely visualize it.
If Pearl Harbor's call was "Never Forget", Black Tuesday's will certanly be "Always Remember."
[url="http://www.geocities.com/wtc_destruction/"]http://www.geocities.com/wtc_destruction/[/url]
----
"The Price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
[b]I think this one will hit home more though... the sheer scale of it for one[/b][/quote]
IMO, a few years down the road, the country will be just as lax as it is now in maintaining security. That's the pattern we've shown throughout history.
[quote][b]and you are correct, the US government failed to learn that from these attacks.[/b][/quote]
The American people failed to learn from any of the attacks, either.
[quote][b]the blind military support of Isreal, which is the oppressor is just stupid. America prides itself on democrary, yet spends billions sending military aid to allow the Israeli's to maintain a campaign of terror against the Palestinians.[/b][/quote]
You mean like how the Palestinans maintain a campaign of terror against Israeli men, women and children? Calling Israel the oppressor is a bit...off. Granted, they aren't the most diplomatic country, but we would be just as bad, if not worse, if we were surrounded by hostile powers and under constant attack from terrorists and a war what, every five or ten years, the odds always against them?
[b]I agree totaly, I just hope in our search for vengance we do not go too far and become as bad as those who did this.
[/quote][/b]
I am not condoning vengeance, either. I merely seek the extermination of the vermin who could do things like this.
[quote][b]
But at the same time recruit and fight along side people in countries like afganistan that are trying to build freedom.
[/quote][/b]
If you think Afghanistan's government is trying to build freedom, you've got some research to do. Try looking up women's rights, the Taliban, and stoned to death. Afghanistan is one of the least free nations in the world. Their government is extremely oppressive, extremist, and guilty of sheltering terrorist kingpin Osama Bin Laden.
------------------
AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"