[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by mambo_morden [/i]
[B]The investigation teams are comprised of independant international journalists [...]
You can question thier ways all you want, but they've gone outta thier way to try and convince everyone and be as unbiased as possible. [/B][/QUOTE]
as most ppl here are in favour for journalism...
in fact journalists of german news agencies are report being disclosed from information and even indirectly threatened to not enter the battle field like "embeded reporters" as "getting fired upon by accident" could occur regarding accurate validating of targets such as vehicles or radiosignals "can't be assured".
well those reporters also report that these treatings of journalism is only aplied on teams belonging to nations of the "unwilling".
(a few journalists are allowed to accompany troops though to do "controled" observation)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by rhett [/i]
[B]Ahh yes... We are all arrogant bastards. I forgot that for a second. My humblest apologies to you... [/B][/QUOTE]
There are Reson Why people say that about the US. And Alot of people that I have talk to(At school) Inclueding me, Feel the same way.
[QUOTE]U.S. Central Command, which oversees the war in Iraq, said in a statement that troops were examining several "sites of interest," [b]but said it was premature to call the Najaf site a chemical weapons factory[/b].[/QUOTE]
Is it just me or aren't someone jumping the gun that it's a chemical weapons factory??
the US military is supremely overconfident and arrogant in most respects, it also has a long history of being so, wading into plenty of wars where it suffers major defeats and even losses because it is so freakin huge. While Pearl Harbour was a sneak attack there were repeated warnings ignored, a radar installation not set up on the islands because they wanted to preserve some flowers etc etc etc... "no-one would dare attack us".
Vietnam
Plus a squillion others large and small.
Even in war games the US has gone down the toilet. The Aussies, in a rusty pile of shit, conventional sub, 'sank' a US aircraft carrier without loss.
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Dont you fucking dare 'decide' that I'm a bloodhound either. The grunts on the ground are the guys who have to live with the dumbfuck orders they are issued and none of them deserve to die. Unfortunately conscripted private Joe Public doesnt run the military but he's the one that catches RPGS with his face etc.
War is war, people die and they will continue to die just as long as the US military keeps ticking away as it does. The US public is insulated from the truth. The latest pictures of US soldiers, a group of maintenance engineers who took a lethal wrong turn, won't be seen on any American television. You wont see the bodies of servicemen tossed fairly loosely into a morgue , riddled with holes, most of which indicate execution rather than honest combat.
The tank story comes from an Aussie military source, its not even publicly known, and do you know why boys and girls ? Because its embarassing. You're not supposed to be able to stop an entire armoured division with a couple outdated tanks... (supposedly)
The US military just waltzes in an expects a walkover every time. Unfortunately when you fuck up in war you generally pay for it with death. I'm not evil, merely pragmatic and I've always been a voice of dissent. Sure there are plenty of good people in the services, that doesnt mean its perfect. Its a long way from that. Try to make the distinction I am, US military as a collective body and then the servicemen actually involved.
I WANT TO SEE the US suffer some setbacks/defeats, some that they cant hide from the media, which gives the greater US public an idea of how fucked up and stupid the WAR is. The anethsetised, lazy, apathetic and insular US public wont get off its collective arse and stop it, until it sees 'heads on pikes'. I'm not talking about activists, I'm not talking about concientious peace activists, I'm talking about the millions of couch potatoes safely tucked away in the suburbs. The war is bullshit, but it wont be stopping anytime soon unless alot of good people die.
I hope like fuck Saddam doesnt have a dirty bomb... because cancer and long term health effects arent very media friendly, they can go away quietly and die away from camera. A dirty bomb could easily kill a few thousand people, slowly.... if he's going to get nasty, ( and I hope he doesnt ) he uses something loud, noisy and a camera magnet.
Whats so hard for you to see ? I want to see the US fall on its arse, I also dont want to see anyone die. Its a paradox in all surety that doesnt mean I dont mean it.
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You all seem suprised that I show some distain for the US. I've never denied it. There is alot wrong with the US, there are alot of things the US does abysmally wrong. That doesnt mean to say there arent plenty of good Americans. Unless I say otherwise I'm ALWAYS talking collectively.
For fucks sake I was advocating the dissolution of the US sometime back... splitting the US, North/South, East/West to try and reduce the bully boy arrogance that is natural to a country with a massive powerbase.
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Chemical weapons are one thing, radioactive stuff is another. Atleast VX, Sarin and so forth dissapate. Nuclear waste strapped to bomb with duct tape wont....
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One other thing bugs me too... if Bush and his Admin claim that Saddam has WMD then why the fuck would he put 200,000 US servicemen right in Saddams lap ?? If Saddam had an efficent, effective system of delivery and the actual weapon agents to kill lots of people, what President in his right mind would send large contingents of massed troops up to Saddams doorstep ?
If Bush was genuinely after people with WMD, North Korea would be top of the list... only problem with that is they can lob a Nuke... and not even the mighty Nimitz et al can survive that.
Nope.. this war isnt about any noble cause, it never was, and never will be.
@ Konrad - alluding to a possible patriotism regarding my country is useless as something like patriotism and nationalism is something I really don't support having the idea of uniting ppl instead of subdividing them into nationalities.
I am really glad to live in germany as I think only some scandinavian countries are a better site to live in - being glad to live in a certain place of the world doesn't mean that I don't have a critical mind towards administration.
after germany was liberated from the NS regime by the allieds (which indeed had been an unavoidable war regarding the occupations made and the holocaust performed by this regime) - first plans had been to de-industrialize and de-militarize germany completely by the will of the Brits and the French.
the Berlin Blockade provoked by the sowjets proved that europe would be the stage for a confrontation between the two systems of western capitalism and sowjet stalinism. Winston Churchill put it to the point when speaking from the "iron curtain" being the imaginational line between the clash of the systems.
allieds came to the result that installing an integrated germany would be more of use than having a gap within the western european defense line facing the biggest army potential on the continent at that time gaining control oover more and more countries and installing sowjet friendly administrations.
next to the Marshall plan germany soon became member of the NATO and was allowed to rebuild an army.
german politicians renounced owning weapons of mass destruction by their own (yes I know - passively benefitting from the potential of other western states).
germany build up a defense force with the task only to be of a defensive nature. this is also implemented in the constitution of germany not to attend or conduct any type of war of aggression.
(thats why germany can't attend the current action without a mandate of the UNO even if it wanted to and why the currently assigned soldiers within the AWACS operations on turkeyan territory and the stationed NBC-defense troops in Kuwait are subjects of debates within the parliament)
I think the majority of the current german population has learned the lesson tought within the years from 1933-19945 very well. some even had to go through another regime being citizens of the GDR learning the truth of socialism.
german policy which actually became independent with the end of the control of Berlin through the allied and sowjet comand always concentrated on getting the european idea to work.
except a minority of stupids the shame for the worse years of the NS-regime has made a totally different view on national pride and patriotism possible.
and that's in fact an achievement I favour a lot....
so blame germany if you like it. I have no problem with it - the example with the waeponry of the US was just an example that owning those genocidal arms is no reason to invade a souvereign state by the means of international law even if it's evident that people are discriminated.
if this was going to be the apttern for modern policy we will soon encounter a final period of anarchy and despotism.
...at least the contrary the idea of Stars And Stripes originally had in mind...
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Solitaire [/i]
[B]as most ppl here are in favour for journalism...
in fact journalists of german news agencies are report being disclosed from information and even indirectly threatened to not enter the battle field like "embeded reporters" as "getting fired upon by accident" could occur regarding accurate validating of targets such as vehicles or radiosignals "can't be assured".
well those reporters also report that these treatings of journalism is only aplied on teams belonging to nations of the "unwilling".
(a few journalists are allowed to accompany troops though to do "controled" observation)
unbiased? [/B][/QUOTE]
You might try watching CNN and hear them talk about how wonderful the converage ability really is. I'm not kidding about this, and they say it frequently.
Again we're looking for a conspiracy here, aren't we Solitaire? There are legitamite threats to independant reporters. Where I see a legitimate warning being issued to reporters, you see a conspiracy and a threat. Do you have anything to back this up?
Have you ever seen how daring some of these independant journalists can be? It's no wonder that some of them are in danger. There's plenty of room for things to go wrong when they're in the field unprotected.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadow boxer [/i]
[B]While Pearl Harbour was a sneak attack there were repeated warnings ignored, a radar installation not set up on the islands because they wanted to preserve some flowers etc etc etc... "no-one would dare attack us". [/B][/QUOTE]
Get the facts correct here, there was an installation in place on the island, however, their observations were misinterpreted that day.
Ok, I am backing away from my own topic now. No point. I fucking give up- at least for now. Doesnt matter what happens, how many times we say it, some of you will hate us for one reason: we are American. You say not us personally. But then you say in general. I can assure you that I am not very much different than an "average" American. So you can classify me with the rest of arrogant, dumb bastards who want to fuck the world.
Im tired, and I am going the fuck to bed.
Here we go again. There's news that a SUSPECTED chemical weapons plant is found and right away you're taking it as PROOF that it really is a chemical plant.
That and some other comments in this thread really tells a lot.
well I haven't said anything regarding the american average; only referred to the ones running the business. maybe I am disappointed about some americans though but I don't feel like hating them for things that have gone out of their hands.
well see if you believe it or not - the people of a country are in first an instrument although systems are pretending it is the other way round pointing to elections etc.
and mambo morden this is not a fairytale of conspiracy - it is a personal view I have observing what's going on with care.
I only draw a line of international politics in the past to where we are now.
you can say I am a jerk telling "stories" like that and every side will have answers, assumptions, claims...."pieces evidence" and last but not least a good oiled propaganda machine to strengthen their view but in fact this is only drawing attention away from the business and guess who loughs about all that in the end.
as I said in a post in another thread I do watch CNN, BBC and other news agencies and I also got some impression how FOX watchers get "impressions" of the war and I really can say there's a difference in doing reports and I really doubt that those ppl do have an independent view...
a reporter in the midst of an assault can't be independent - he automatically loses the jouirnalistic distance from the troops as being in the same shithole and only gets one side or did you see any pictures how iraqi soldiers might feel within a 30 years old tank even not knowing where the damn missiles and grenades are coming from?
there's no difference between soldiers of either side - they have the same fears they follow the same orders (yes and of course it may be a certain aspect that a lot of iraqis are put under pressure to resist the invasion, but that's not a reason for war satisfying me - I also heard of ppl returning to iraq defending it voluntarily - what appears strange to me if the iraq were such a torturous regime as its supposed to be. maybe these belonged to the sunits though I can't tell....
whatever you may say about journalism I always monitoring the news with two eyes as it's obvious since Josef Goebbels that massmedia is always used to influence the ppl's mind and feelings.
in germany there are some news agencies indirectly supporting the war and opose against the current gov and some doing the other way round - in all the different networks I haven't had the impression that things are monitored from a neutral angle - every piece of information is in some way commented - and behind every comment there is a being having a certain view on things or follows an inhouse policy!
so what about news?
when I claimed the information given and the treating of international free press is not convincing I only referred to a report on NTV (a german co-op. of CNN) where this reporter said that the treating of the freedom of press is handled in two ways and actually cut regarding news teams originating from the nations condemning the war.
if you can understand german I can try to ask to get some footage of that report (but I think you won't care anyway)
now I want to say something about ppl are treating contras here:
speaking of hatred regarding a nation just because ways of this nation's policy is questioned may be an adequate "argument" of ppl who like the principle of finding scapegoats but not a convincing element implemted within an argument.
always retreating and claiming the role of being a possible scapegoat and target of worldwide conspiracy against this being's nation or beliefs is a very egocentric view claiming that all those oposing do have limited views and/or are prejudiced what may be true regarding a certain amount of individuals but can't be a generalized pattern for a or several nations.
some ppl here really would do a great deal of abandoning their imagination of being part of a collective martyr. the fact that a lot of people are unsatisfied with the ways US administration deals with international problems does not automatically include that ppl are condemning the US citizens (maybe some do but most just blaming americans for Bush's presidency).
I've experienced that US citizens seem to take criticism of their gov personally but ppl have to differ there.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Solitaire [/i]
[B]
I've experienced that US citizens seem to take criticism of their gov personally but ppl have to differ there. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'll jjust answer one little sliver of that post before I head out of town...
The reason that happens is because we believe in our government. Thousands died to set up our government, and it is perhaps the greatest form of a republic/democracy that you can find. You cannot insult 'the government' or 'Shrub' without insulting most Americans. Because the government is "for the people, by the people". And the president will always be represetative of America- which is why no matter what happens people stand by the president.
Our government (at least theoretically) is made up by people who represent all of us. So you get a trickle down effect- insult the government, you insult the representatives, you insult the people.
One last thing to mention here- we have a reason we support our government. For the most part it has done us good over the years, and being betrayed by the government does not occur often. I am proud to be an American, proud of America, and I am willing to die to sustain America's values and liberties.
P.S. This is in no way to say that our government is perfect. There are a multitude of things that must be changed, but I'm working on that. :)
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Solitaire [/i]
[B]if you can understand german I can try to ask to get some footage of that report (but I think you won't care anyway)[/B][/QUOTE]
It would be interesting to see, haven't had to speak german for some time, but am always up for it.
You don't have to take what I was saying personally, and I hope that you can see where I was coming from with the consiracy bit.
If you really wanna get a good take on international views and how the arabic world sees this, check out Aljezeera's english translated site (don't have the URL off hand).
I dont like Bush at all. I love you guys. Dont take it personally.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Wow. A lot of people here need to calm down just a tad. Go watch [i]Whispers of the Heart[/i] and see the brighter side of life for a while or something. But at the very least, get over it.
regarding the centuries of fighting for democracy I understand and share your views rhett but taking care about health doesn't automatically prevent occurance of cancer!
and if Bush is mirroring your thoughts and beliefs that's ok and I insulted you and will carry on with that as I can't share Mr. Bush's view of a "new world order" (a quotation of his dad and I'm sure you'll find it also somewhere in your reach ;) ).
to mambo
I've already uttered my views about the role of media within wars and policy; I think there's nothing I can add....
I'll see if NTV has footage on their site if its really interesting you.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Solitaire [/i]
[B]I've already uttered my views about the role of media within wars and policy; I think there's nothing I can add....
I'll see if NTV has footage on their site if its really interesting you. [/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]Wow. A lot of people here need to calm down just a tad. Go watch [i]Whispers of the Heart[/i] and see the brighter side of life for a while or something. But at the very least, get over it. [/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally pulled out of the butt of Shadow Boxer [/i]
[b]I WANT TO SEE the US suffer some setbacks/defeats, some that they cant hide from the media, which gives the greater US public an idea of how fucked up and stupid the WAR is. The anethsetised, lazy, apathetic and insular US public wont get off its collective arse and stop it, until it sees 'heads on pikes'. I'm not talking about activists, I'm not talking about concientious peace activists, I'm talking about the millions of couch potatoes safely tucked away in the suburbs. The war is bullshit, but it wont be stopping anytime soon unless alot of good people die.[/b]
[/QUOTE]
Sorry Biggles. I just get that way sometimes when people say that they want to see my fellow Americans dead. After all, I have at least one relative in the reserves, who narrowly missed being called up. Perhaps, SB, you'd like to explain to him how much you value his life? How you feel it's right that he die so people start agreeing with you? After all, you yourself called him a good person, so he must be willing to listen to reason about this.
Or perhaps we can just, you know, get together, chill, watch CNN, or better yet, Al-Jazeera, and cheer every time one of our troops is killed and/or goes missing. Maybe we can download that morgue video from some news service, and make a lovely photo montage of it. Something to go over the fireplace, maybe? I'm sure you'd see this as just a lovely way to calm down and get along.
Whoa...my sanity just came back. Sorry again Biggles....
SB, let's say your wish comes true and we do get hit with some defeats. What makes you think that I, the average American couch potato you so thoughtfully describe, will do a 180 and say "Oh. We shouldn't be in Iraq." For you to think that leads me to believe that you think I place much more value on American lives than on Iraqi lives, be they civilians or of the military. I find this insulting. You think that I don't realize the imports of war unless MY friends and comrades die, that I am so isolated into my own little world that I cannot possibly empathize with any Iraqi. You know what I think will happen if we suffer massive casualties? I think it will harden public opinion [i]against[/i] Saddam Hussein. The "Concientious Peace Activists" will be discredited, and many will perceive them as defending Saddam, as some are already. They begin to scream out for blood, to stop caring whether we sink to the Iraqi level of cruelty and disregard of human life or not. Of course, the administration will continue to condemn any and all war crimes on both sides of the battle, but that won't stop small pockets of coalition forces from becoming fed up and taking matters into their own hands.
How can you, though, say that the US is arrogant for what it does? You, who obviously have access to a computer, obviously do not have to worry about government agents and censors looking over your shoulder, who obviously have access to any number of independent news services which are free to siphon you this drivel, who obviously must have a freedom of religious beliefs from what you've said long before in other topics, and must be living a relatively comfortable life if you are able to find the time to compose and post these rants, say it is arrogant for us to provide other human beings with the same rights? What makes you so much more worthy of these human rights than the average Iraqi citizen? I would think, that, having experienced these freedoms, you would be moved to fight for them, to make sure that every human being has, one day, the same opportunity you do. And, even if you aren't so inclined, one would think that you would at the very least be all for the people who do give of themselves to secure these rights [i]and their leaders[/i]. You see, that is the beauty of a country like mine. Because of our freedoms and system of government, it is very difficult for the people on the front lines to be all "good" people and the leaders that try to coordinate them to be all "bad" people. Many of our leaders at one time filled the very same shoes as these "good" people, and, for their wisdom, talent, or other form of ability, were selected to move up to the next echelon of leadership. THAT is why people like me take offense when our leaders are criticized. They could just as well be one of us; they fight with out goals in mind and with our best interests, and those of the world community as a whole, at heart. It's not always the most glamorous route.
the good thing in belief is that no one has to prove something...you just believe...
I'm really sorry for the american, british and australian soldiers that gave their lives for an idea they're believing in and those whose life still is in danger facing death around every corner every stone every dune and the same feelings I have for the iraqis. the guilty aren't those pulling the trigger the guilty are those causing them to be in that situation. and that are in first place the politicians and dictators and whatever type of leadership there exist and in second place we the citizens of the worlds communities allowing those people to rise up and use fear as a weapon to control people.
some of vertigo's words really touched me because the tragedies caused by this engagement are obviuos and a bitter fact.
from day to day more hospitals here in germany recieve wounded from the war every day we get new numbers of lives lost and every day families suffer the loss of relatives or friends...
and if someone says that their beloved gave their love just for an economical or ideologic figure, an abstract goal...there's no doubt this is taken as an insult.
nevertheless I can't accept a crusade for humanity (I really doubt this is the major concern) basing on this unilateral initiative.
Hussein is in lead for about 30 or more years (don't know the exact dates of take over) doing crimes and being supported with weaponry from the western states including equipment for chemical warfare during the campaign against iran. now that policy has changed all those things once tolerated even by most citizens of western nations - perhaps some even haven't known him until the 1st gulfwar.
well I really don't think that Bush all of a sudden appears as a heavensend messiah being the only one enlightened and realizing that Hussein runs a dirty business...
some say: roaring "no lives for oil" is an easy way seeing things
I say: claiming something wrong is a good thing just because a dictator and a voted representative is a difference in legitimation of power is in the same way an easy thing to say and in fact very naive.
but as I said in the begining of this post - it's all a matter of belief...
I just hope the resistance will end soon as its useless regarding the superiority of the attacking forces - continous fighting just will cause more victims but not prevent the current regime from being smashed.
and then we'll see who's next on the roadmap...
One thing is for sure,many civilians are being injured and killed.There should be a law banning any and all bombing of cities,no matter how good you think your weapons are.Havn't heard any more about that "plant" and with their detection systems they have it would have been quite clear how recently its been used.
yeah fine democracy rules and all that... I've already stated ad nauseum that I come from Australia, but I dont nessicarily prescribe to my Governments policies. In fact they suck...
which is what Prime Minister John Howard is doing on GW's dick
The ONLY true reason why AU is in IRAQ is because right now, as we speak, there is a high level government offical from the USA busy negotiating a free trade agreement between the USA and AU. Billions of bucks worth of removed tariffs etc etc etc.
Dubya wants a puppet Governement in place to secure the oil. He also wants to dig up Alaska but thats another story.
There is no statesmanship, there is no high moral purpose to the war in IRAQ, those kinds of things are merely convienient PR/propoganda.
Germany and Russia sold lots of weapons and equipment to Iraq, they never backed the war because they didnt want to lose thier best customer.
Money, greed, power, self interest, on a personal and state level.
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As far as me 'biting the hand that feeds me?'
peh....
my views, provided I had the same information as I have now, would be exactly the same, in Belarussia, in Chile, in Japan, in France, in Canada and I'd still post the same way if I had access to a computer.
I dont toe the party line, I dont swaddle myself in any particular flag. I think the US sucks on alot of levels. It's good on others.
Sensible patriotism is one thing, fervent zealous and unthinking idealism is another.
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How many times do I have to say I'd prefer to see NO-ONE DEAD, MAIMED, BEREAVED OR HOMELESS.
Unfortunately the US wont learn any lessons without having its collective nose bloodied.
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Uncle Sam is flat out too big for his boots, he has 50% of the worlds wealth and only 2% of the worlds population.
That flat out wont wash forever. One of these days he's going to either 'share' or he's going to have it taken from him, one way or the other.
Can you see yourself giving say 80% of your wealth to the rest of the world ???
I dont think so Tim.
"But I've earned it, I've fought for it, I , I, "
"Yeah? well does the Iraqi taxi driver who earns a tenth of what you do for the same job deserve his money any less ? "
And before you ask I'd be happy with regular meals a place to sleep and a little workshop to make things in. I have no desire for palaces and playstations.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by whitestar90 [/i]
[B]One thing is for sure,many civilians are being injured and killed.There should be a law banning any and all bombing of cities,no matter how good you think your weapons are.[/B][/QUOTE]
linky please. I haven't had time to follow the war, we hit something we didn't mean to?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by shadow boxer [/i]
yeah fine democracy rules and all that... I've already stated ad nauseum that I come from Australia, but I dont nessicarily prescribe to my Governments policies. In fact they suck...
[b]that can be said for all governments, see, no matter what, no government can make everyone happy[/b[
which is what Prime Minister John Howard is doing on GW's dick
[b] riiiiiiiiiight....[/b]
The ONLY true reason why AU is in IRAQ is because right now, as we speak, there is a high level government offical from the USA busy negotiating a free trade agreement between the USA and AU. Billions of bucks worth of removed tariffs etc etc etc.
[b]Possible, but you don't seem to concider other posibilities, such as that AU supports freeing a supressed nation from a person that wants to be the next Stalin....[/b]
Dubya wants a puppet Governement in place to secure the oil. He also wants to dig up Alaska but thats another story.
[b]I say dig up Alaska, and again, you seem to think that the whole reason behind this war is to get oil, I can say that that is not a reason, or at least not a major one. despite what you may think, Dubya isn't some stupid idiot, out to take over the world, yadayada. He is already trying to get car companies to make cars that are less dependant on gas, something that could have been done 20+ years ago if not for opec. but thats another story.[/b]
There is no statesmanship, there is no high moral purpose to the war in IRAQ, those kinds of things are merely convienient PR/propoganda.
[b]I beg to differ, there are a variety of reasons to enter this war,
a: Get rid of saddam, which in turn means no more support for Suicide Bombers, or less. (He paid 750,000 to the family of any suicide bomber). that in turn frees a nation of a ruler that likes to kill off his own people, though various means of tourture, testing weapons, etc. And also means less support for terrorist organizations, as it was prooven long ago that Saddam was selling weapons to such organizations. It if for these reasons that countrys such as AU and England joined us in this war.[/b]
Germany and Russia sold lots of weapons and equipment to Iraq, they never backed the war because they didnt want to lose thier best customer.
[b]True true true[/b]
Money, greed, power, self interest, on a personal and state level.
[b]this doesnt fit into the rest of your report....LOL[/b]
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As far as me 'biting the hand that feeds me?'
peh....
my views, provided I had the same information as I have now, would be exactly the same, in Belarussia, in Chile, in Japan, in France, in Canada and I'd still post the same way if I had access to a computer.
[b]you don't have access to a computer....?[/b]
I dont toe the party line, I dont swaddle myself in any particular flag. I think the US sucks on alot of levels. It's good on others.
[b]This, we can agree on whole heartedly, though probably oppicite on the particulers...[/b]
Sensible patriotism is one thing, fervent zealous and unthinking idealism is another.
[b]again, I agree. (Looks at Anla Shok. ;) )[/b]
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How many times do I have to say I'd prefer to see NO-ONE DEAD, MAIMED, BEREAVED OR HOMELESS.
[b]I agree, unfortually, won't ever happen. I mean, if your going by this statement, you should be very happy that we are going to get rid of saddam, the mans a butcher.Do some research if you think I'm paroting the media, I did. I was sickened.[/b]
Unfortunately the US wont learn any lessons without having its collective nose bloodied.
[b]Yea, but I feel sorry for the guy that bloodied it! LOL[/b]
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Uncle Sam is flat out too big for his boots, he has 50% of the worlds wealth and only 2% of the worlds population.
[b]That because China has like, 75% of it. :) But yea, Uncle Sam is a jerk in many respects. [/b]
That flat out wont wash forever. One of these days he's going to either 'share' or he's going to have it taken from him, one way or the other.
[b]Your neglecting alot here, sure we have alot of the wealth, but we also have some of the largest humanitarian aid efforts on the planets, we buy almost everything, and export alot. Come to america, you would be surprised how hard it is to find things "Made in the USA" its near impossible. We export almost everything we make, planes, cars, etc. Our whole nation is basically a selling buying market.[/b]
Can you see yourself giving say 80% of your wealth to the rest of the world ???
[b]Again, we may be wealthy, but how is that our problem? by your thinking, you want the entire world a communistic society, which, is of course the ideal scociety. However it is a catch 22, because the entire would would have nothing in the end. People don't work unless they have some personal gain. [/b]
I dont think so Tim.
[b]GO ALF![/b]
"But I've earned it, I've fought for it, I , I, "
"Yeah? well does the Iraqi taxi driver who earns a tenth of what you do for the same job deserve his money any less ? "
[b]Different nation, different worth. a global currency system is in feasable. look at the Euro, and how hard that has been.[/b]
And before you ask I'd be happy with regular meals a place to sleep and a little workshop to make things in. I have no desire for palaces and playstations.
[b]Hear hear. Its not buying things to be happy, its being happy with what you got![/b][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Konrad [/i]
[B]Well, After all not to long ago you were the one who said Bin Laden met with White House officials shortly before the 9-11 attacks. [/B][/QUOTE]
Excuse me? I never said bin Laden met with White House officials right before 9/11. You've got me confused with someone else.
I have also heard on WBBM, a CBS affiliated radio station that no WMDs have been found at all so far and no SCUD missiles have been launched either.
Look, I hate Hussein. I think he's a complete bastard who should be ousted from power. I just think that doing it this way is wrong. If the UN had supported the military actions, I'd be all for it. But they did not. I don't care why, but it was an agreement between the UN and Iraq that was being breached. WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO DO THIS!
He represents me only in that we both process oxygen into carbon dioxide. I find myself almost diametrically opposed to every policy he endorses.
What Shrub (Yes, I WILL continue to call him that!) represents best is the SUV driving, bottled-water drinking, golf playing spoiled child of priviledge I despise so much. He's the little whiner who bribes the school bully to leave him alone and eggs him on to beat up the other kids. He's the guy who cuts you off on the road because he's too busy talking on his cell phone to notice your car. He's the CEO who lays off 20% of his work force and rakes in a multi-milloin dollar bonus. He's also the board member that sells off all his stock just before the company tanks, leaving all the employees without retirement money.
Shrub represents the worst of this country. This illegal and immoral war is just more evidence of that.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AnlaShok [/i]
[B]Excuse me? I never said bin Laden met with White House officials right before 9/11. You've got me confused with someone else. [/B][/QUOTE]
You are correct - It was Faylorn. My apologies to you. :(
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AnlaShok [/i]
[B]Just had to say this:
I am an american and I loathe George W. Bush.
He represents me only in that we both process oxygen into carbon dioxide. I find myself almost diametrically opposed to every policy he endorses.
What Shrub (Yes, I WILL continue to call him that!) represents best is the SUV driving, bottled-water drinking, golf playing spoiled child of priviledge I despise so much. He's the little whiner who bribes the school bully to leave him alone and eggs him on to beat up the other kids. He's the guy who cuts you off on the road because he's too busy talking on his cell phone to notice your car. He's the CEO who lays off 20% of his work force and rakes in a multi-milloin dollar bonus. He's also the board member that sells off all his stock just before the company tanks, leaving all the employees without retirement money.
Shrub represents the worst of this country. This illegal and immoral war is just more evidence of that. [/B][/QUOTE]
While I can understand your views (I'm stopping just short of saying I agree with it), explain exactly HOW this war is any more illegal or immoral than any other war in the past century ?
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by A2597 [/i]
[B]linky please. I haven't had time to follow the war, we hit something we didn't mean to? [/B][/QUOTE]
I have not either folowed the war that much but what I heared on the news, if you can trust the news, some missiles hit Iran??? :confused:
I don't know if it's true!!
Comments
[B]The investigation teams are comprised of independant international journalists [...]
You can question thier ways all you want, but they've gone outta thier way to try and convince everyone and be as unbiased as possible. [/B][/QUOTE]
as most ppl here are in favour for journalism...
in fact journalists of german news agencies are report being disclosed from information and even indirectly threatened to not enter the battle field like "embeded reporters" as "getting fired upon by accident" could occur regarding accurate validating of targets such as vehicles or radiosignals "can't be assured".
well those reporters also report that these treatings of journalism is only aplied on teams belonging to nations of the "unwilling".
(a few journalists are allowed to accompany troops though to do "controled" observation)
unbiased?
[B]Ahh yes... We are all arrogant bastards. I forgot that for a second. My humblest apologies to you... [/B][/QUOTE]
There are Reson Why people say that about the US. And Alot of people that I have talk to(At school) Inclueding me, Feel the same way.
[QUOTE]U.S. Central Command, which oversees the war in Iraq, said in a statement that troops were examining several "sites of interest," [b]but said it was premature to call the Najaf site a chemical weapons factory[/b].[/QUOTE]
Is it just me or aren't someone jumping the gun that it's a chemical weapons factory??
ahem.... now
the US military is supremely overconfident and arrogant in most respects, it also has a long history of being so, wading into plenty of wars where it suffers major defeats and even losses because it is so freakin huge. While Pearl Harbour was a sneak attack there were repeated warnings ignored, a radar installation not set up on the islands because they wanted to preserve some flowers etc etc etc... "no-one would dare attack us".
Vietnam
Plus a squillion others large and small.
Even in war games the US has gone down the toilet. The Aussies, in a rusty pile of shit, conventional sub, 'sank' a US aircraft carrier without loss.
~~~~
Dont you fucking dare 'decide' that I'm a bloodhound either. The grunts on the ground are the guys who have to live with the dumbfuck orders they are issued and none of them deserve to die. Unfortunately conscripted private Joe Public doesnt run the military but he's the one that catches RPGS with his face etc.
War is war, people die and they will continue to die just as long as the US military keeps ticking away as it does. The US public is insulated from the truth. The latest pictures of US soldiers, a group of maintenance engineers who took a lethal wrong turn, won't be seen on any American television. You wont see the bodies of servicemen tossed fairly loosely into a morgue , riddled with holes, most of which indicate execution rather than honest combat.
The tank story comes from an Aussie military source, its not even publicly known, and do you know why boys and girls ? Because its embarassing. You're not supposed to be able to stop an entire armoured division with a couple outdated tanks... (supposedly)
The US military just waltzes in an expects a walkover every time. Unfortunately when you fuck up in war you generally pay for it with death. I'm not evil, merely pragmatic and I've always been a voice of dissent. Sure there are plenty of good people in the services, that doesnt mean its perfect. Its a long way from that. Try to make the distinction I am, US military as a collective body and then the servicemen actually involved.
I WANT TO SEE the US suffer some setbacks/defeats, some that they cant hide from the media, which gives the greater US public an idea of how fucked up and stupid the WAR is. The anethsetised, lazy, apathetic and insular US public wont get off its collective arse and stop it, until it sees 'heads on pikes'. I'm not talking about activists, I'm not talking about concientious peace activists, I'm talking about the millions of couch potatoes safely tucked away in the suburbs. The war is bullshit, but it wont be stopping anytime soon unless alot of good people die.
I hope like fuck Saddam doesnt have a dirty bomb... because cancer and long term health effects arent very media friendly, they can go away quietly and die away from camera. A dirty bomb could easily kill a few thousand people, slowly.... if he's going to get nasty, ( and I hope he doesnt ) he uses something loud, noisy and a camera magnet.
Whats so hard for you to see ? I want to see the US fall on its arse, I also dont want to see anyone die. Its a paradox in all surety that doesnt mean I dont mean it.
~~~~
You all seem suprised that I show some distain for the US. I've never denied it. There is alot wrong with the US, there are alot of things the US does abysmally wrong. That doesnt mean to say there arent plenty of good Americans. Unless I say otherwise I'm ALWAYS talking collectively.
For fucks sake I was advocating the dissolution of the US sometime back... splitting the US, North/South, East/West to try and reduce the bully boy arrogance that is natural to a country with a massive powerbase.
~~~~
Chemical weapons are one thing, radioactive stuff is another. Atleast VX, Sarin and so forth dissapate. Nuclear waste strapped to bomb with duct tape wont....
~~~~
One other thing bugs me too... if Bush and his Admin claim that Saddam has WMD then why the fuck would he put 200,000 US servicemen right in Saddams lap ?? If Saddam had an efficent, effective system of delivery and the actual weapon agents to kill lots of people, what President in his right mind would send large contingents of massed troops up to Saddams doorstep ?
If Bush was genuinely after people with WMD, North Korea would be top of the list... only problem with that is they can lob a Nuke... and not even the mighty Nimitz et al can survive that.
Nope.. this war isnt about any noble cause, it never was, and never will be.
I am really glad to live in germany as I think only some scandinavian countries are a better site to live in - being glad to live in a certain place of the world doesn't mean that I don't have a critical mind towards administration.
after germany was liberated from the NS regime by the allieds (which indeed had been an unavoidable war regarding the occupations made and the holocaust performed by this regime) - first plans had been to de-industrialize and de-militarize germany completely by the will of the Brits and the French.
the Berlin Blockade provoked by the sowjets proved that europe would be the stage for a confrontation between the two systems of western capitalism and sowjet stalinism. Winston Churchill put it to the point when speaking from the "iron curtain" being the imaginational line between the clash of the systems.
allieds came to the result that installing an integrated germany would be more of use than having a gap within the western european defense line facing the biggest army potential on the continent at that time gaining control oover more and more countries and installing sowjet friendly administrations.
next to the Marshall plan germany soon became member of the NATO and was allowed to rebuild an army.
german politicians renounced owning weapons of mass destruction by their own (yes I know - passively benefitting from the potential of other western states).
germany build up a defense force with the task only to be of a defensive nature. this is also implemented in the constitution of germany not to attend or conduct any type of war of aggression.
(thats why germany can't attend the current action without a mandate of the UNO even if it wanted to and why the currently assigned soldiers within the AWACS operations on turkeyan territory and the stationed NBC-defense troops in Kuwait are subjects of debates within the parliament)
I think the majority of the current german population has learned the lesson tought within the years from 1933-19945 very well. some even had to go through another regime being citizens of the GDR learning the truth of socialism.
german policy which actually became independent with the end of the control of Berlin through the allied and sowjet comand always concentrated on getting the european idea to work.
except a minority of stupids the shame for the worse years of the NS-regime has made a totally different view on national pride and patriotism possible.
and that's in fact an achievement I favour a lot....
so blame germany if you like it. I have no problem with it - the example with the waeponry of the US was just an example that owning those genocidal arms is no reason to invade a souvereign state by the means of international law even if it's evident that people are discriminated.
if this was going to be the apttern for modern policy we will soon encounter a final period of anarchy and despotism.
...at least the contrary the idea of Stars And Stripes originally had in mind...
[B]as most ppl here are in favour for journalism...
in fact journalists of german news agencies are report being disclosed from information and even indirectly threatened to not enter the battle field like "embeded reporters" as "getting fired upon by accident" could occur regarding accurate validating of targets such as vehicles or radiosignals "can't be assured".
well those reporters also report that these treatings of journalism is only aplied on teams belonging to nations of the "unwilling".
(a few journalists are allowed to accompany troops though to do "controled" observation)
unbiased? [/B][/QUOTE]
You might try watching CNN and hear them talk about how wonderful the converage ability really is. I'm not kidding about this, and they say it frequently.
Again we're looking for a conspiracy here, aren't we Solitaire? There are legitamite threats to independant reporters. Where I see a legitimate warning being issued to reporters, you see a conspiracy and a threat. Do you have anything to back this up?
Have you ever seen how daring some of these independant journalists can be? It's no wonder that some of them are in danger. There's plenty of room for things to go wrong when they're in the field unprotected.
[B]While Pearl Harbour was a sneak attack there were repeated warnings ignored, a radar installation not set up on the islands because they wanted to preserve some flowers etc etc etc... "no-one would dare attack us". [/B][/QUOTE]
Get the facts correct here, there was an installation in place on the island, however, their observations were misinterpreted that day.
and yes youre right, the planes were detected but far too late, and yes, misidentified as friendlies.
Im tired, and I am going the fuck to bed.
That and some other comments in this thread really tells a lot.
- PJH
well I haven't said anything regarding the american average; only referred to the ones running the business. maybe I am disappointed about some americans though but I don't feel like hating them for things that have gone out of their hands.
well see if you believe it or not - the people of a country are in first an instrument although systems are pretending it is the other way round pointing to elections etc.
and mambo morden this is not a fairytale of conspiracy - it is a personal view I have observing what's going on with care.
I only draw a line of international politics in the past to where we are now.
you can say I am a jerk telling "stories" like that and every side will have answers, assumptions, claims...."pieces evidence" and last but not least a good oiled propaganda machine to strengthen their view but in fact this is only drawing attention away from the business and guess who loughs about all that in the end.
as I said in a post in another thread I do watch CNN, BBC and other news agencies and I also got some impression how FOX watchers get "impressions" of the war and I really can say there's a difference in doing reports and I really doubt that those ppl do have an independent view...
a reporter in the midst of an assault can't be independent - he automatically loses the jouirnalistic distance from the troops as being in the same shithole and only gets one side or did you see any pictures how iraqi soldiers might feel within a 30 years old tank even not knowing where the damn missiles and grenades are coming from?
there's no difference between soldiers of either side - they have the same fears they follow the same orders (yes and of course it may be a certain aspect that a lot of iraqis are put under pressure to resist the invasion, but that's not a reason for war satisfying me - I also heard of ppl returning to iraq defending it voluntarily - what appears strange to me if the iraq were such a torturous regime as its supposed to be. maybe these belonged to the sunits though I can't tell....
whatever you may say about journalism I always monitoring the news with two eyes as it's obvious since Josef Goebbels that massmedia is always used to influence the ppl's mind and feelings.
in germany there are some news agencies indirectly supporting the war and opose against the current gov and some doing the other way round - in all the different networks I haven't had the impression that things are monitored from a neutral angle - every piece of information is in some way commented - and behind every comment there is a being having a certain view on things or follows an inhouse policy!
so what about news?
when I claimed the information given and the treating of international free press is not convincing I only referred to a report on NTV (a german co-op. of CNN) where this reporter said that the treating of the freedom of press is handled in two ways and actually cut regarding news teams originating from the nations condemning the war.
if you can understand german I can try to ask to get some footage of that report (but I think you won't care anyway)
now I want to say something about ppl are treating contras here:
speaking of hatred regarding a nation just because ways of this nation's policy is questioned may be an adequate "argument" of ppl who like the principle of finding scapegoats but not a convincing element implemted within an argument.
always retreating and claiming the role of being a possible scapegoat and target of worldwide conspiracy against this being's nation or beliefs is a very egocentric view claiming that all those oposing do have limited views and/or are prejudiced what may be true regarding a certain amount of individuals but can't be a generalized pattern for a or several nations.
some ppl here really would do a great deal of abandoning their imagination of being part of a collective martyr. the fact that a lot of people are unsatisfied with the ways US administration deals with international problems does not automatically include that ppl are condemning the US citizens (maybe some do but most just blaming americans for Bush's presidency).
I've experienced that US citizens seem to take criticism of their gov personally but ppl have to differ there.
[B]
I've experienced that US citizens seem to take criticism of their gov personally but ppl have to differ there. [/B][/QUOTE]
I'll jjust answer one little sliver of that post before I head out of town...
The reason that happens is because we believe in our government. Thousands died to set up our government, and it is perhaps the greatest form of a republic/democracy that you can find. You cannot insult 'the government' or 'Shrub' without insulting most Americans. Because the government is "for the people, by the people". And the president will always be represetative of America- which is why no matter what happens people stand by the president.
Our government (at least theoretically) is made up by people who represent all of us. So you get a trickle down effect- insult the government, you insult the representatives, you insult the people.
One last thing to mention here- we have a reason we support our government. For the most part it has done us good over the years, and being betrayed by the government does not occur often. I am proud to be an American, proud of America, and I am willing to die to sustain America's values and liberties.
P.S. This is in no way to say that our government is perfect. There are a multitude of things that must be changed, but I'm working on that. :)
[B]if you can understand german I can try to ask to get some footage of that report (but I think you won't care anyway)[/B][/QUOTE]
It would be interesting to see, haven't had to speak german for some time, but am always up for it.
You don't have to take what I was saying personally, and I hope that you can see where I was coming from with the consiracy bit.
If you really wanna get a good take on international views and how the arabic world sees this, check out Aljezeera's english translated site (don't have the URL off hand).
That's my take...
and if Bush is mirroring your thoughts and beliefs that's ok and I insulted you and will carry on with that as I can't share Mr. Bush's view of a "new world order" (a quotation of his dad and I'm sure you'll find it also somewhere in your reach ;) ).
to mambo
I've already uttered my views about the role of media within wars and policy; I think there's nothing I can add....
I'll see if NTV has footage on their site if its really interesting you.
[B]I've already uttered my views about the role of media within wars and policy; I think there's nothing I can add....
I'll see if NTV has footage on their site if its really interesting you. [/B][/QUOTE]
I respect that... was just voicing mine as well
[B]Wow. A lot of people here need to calm down just a tad. Go watch [i]Whispers of the Heart[/i] and see the brighter side of life for a while or something. But at the very least, get over it. [/B][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally pulled out of the butt of Shadow Boxer [/i]
[b]I WANT TO SEE the US suffer some setbacks/defeats, some that they cant hide from the media, which gives the greater US public an idea of how fucked up and stupid the WAR is. The anethsetised, lazy, apathetic and insular US public wont get off its collective arse and stop it, until it sees 'heads on pikes'. I'm not talking about activists, I'm not talking about concientious peace activists, I'm talking about the millions of couch potatoes safely tucked away in the suburbs. The war is bullshit, but it wont be stopping anytime soon unless alot of good people die.[/b]
[/QUOTE]
Sorry Biggles. I just get that way sometimes when people say that they want to see my fellow Americans dead. After all, I have at least one relative in the reserves, who narrowly missed being called up. Perhaps, SB, you'd like to explain to him how much you value his life? How you feel it's right that he die so people start agreeing with you? After all, you yourself called him a good person, so he must be willing to listen to reason about this.
Or perhaps we can just, you know, get together, chill, watch CNN, or better yet, Al-Jazeera, and cheer every time one of our troops is killed and/or goes missing. Maybe we can download that morgue video from some news service, and make a lovely photo montage of it. Something to go over the fireplace, maybe? I'm sure you'd see this as just a lovely way to calm down and get along.
Whoa...my sanity just came back. Sorry again Biggles....
SB, let's say your wish comes true and we do get hit with some defeats. What makes you think that I, the average American couch potato you so thoughtfully describe, will do a 180 and say "Oh. We shouldn't be in Iraq." For you to think that leads me to believe that you think I place much more value on American lives than on Iraqi lives, be they civilians or of the military. I find this insulting. You think that I don't realize the imports of war unless MY friends and comrades die, that I am so isolated into my own little world that I cannot possibly empathize with any Iraqi. You know what I think will happen if we suffer massive casualties? I think it will harden public opinion [i]against[/i] Saddam Hussein. The "Concientious Peace Activists" will be discredited, and many will perceive them as defending Saddam, as some are already. They begin to scream out for blood, to stop caring whether we sink to the Iraqi level of cruelty and disregard of human life or not. Of course, the administration will continue to condemn any and all war crimes on both sides of the battle, but that won't stop small pockets of coalition forces from becoming fed up and taking matters into their own hands.
How can you, though, say that the US is arrogant for what it does? You, who obviously have access to a computer, obviously do not have to worry about government agents and censors looking over your shoulder, who obviously have access to any number of independent news services which are free to siphon you this drivel, who obviously must have a freedom of religious beliefs from what you've said long before in other topics, and must be living a relatively comfortable life if you are able to find the time to compose and post these rants, say it is arrogant for us to provide other human beings with the same rights? What makes you so much more worthy of these human rights than the average Iraqi citizen? I would think, that, having experienced these freedoms, you would be moved to fight for them, to make sure that every human being has, one day, the same opportunity you do. And, even if you aren't so inclined, one would think that you would at the very least be all for the people who do give of themselves to secure these rights [i]and their leaders[/i]. You see, that is the beauty of a country like mine. Because of our freedoms and system of government, it is very difficult for the people on the front lines to be all "good" people and the leaders that try to coordinate them to be all "bad" people. Many of our leaders at one time filled the very same shoes as these "good" people, and, for their wisdom, talent, or other form of ability, were selected to move up to the next echelon of leadership. THAT is why people like me take offense when our leaders are criticized. They could just as well be one of us; they fight with out goals in mind and with our best interests, and those of the world community as a whole, at heart. It's not always the most glamorous route.
I'm really sorry for the american, british and australian soldiers that gave their lives for an idea they're believing in and those whose life still is in danger facing death around every corner every stone every dune and the same feelings I have for the iraqis. the guilty aren't those pulling the trigger the guilty are those causing them to be in that situation. and that are in first place the politicians and dictators and whatever type of leadership there exist and in second place we the citizens of the worlds communities allowing those people to rise up and use fear as a weapon to control people.
some of vertigo's words really touched me because the tragedies caused by this engagement are obviuos and a bitter fact.
from day to day more hospitals here in germany recieve wounded from the war every day we get new numbers of lives lost and every day families suffer the loss of relatives or friends...
and if someone says that their beloved gave their love just for an economical or ideologic figure, an abstract goal...there's no doubt this is taken as an insult.
nevertheless I can't accept a crusade for humanity (I really doubt this is the major concern) basing on this unilateral initiative.
Hussein is in lead for about 30 or more years (don't know the exact dates of take over) doing crimes and being supported with weaponry from the western states including equipment for chemical warfare during the campaign against iran. now that policy has changed all those things once tolerated even by most citizens of western nations - perhaps some even haven't known him until the 1st gulfwar.
well I really don't think that Bush all of a sudden appears as a heavensend messiah being the only one enlightened and realizing that Hussein runs a dirty business...
some say: roaring "no lives for oil" is an easy way seeing things
I say: claiming something wrong is a good thing just because a dictator and a voted representative is a difference in legitimation of power is in the same way an easy thing to say and in fact very naive.
but as I said in the begining of this post - it's all a matter of belief...
I just hope the resistance will end soon as its useless regarding the superiority of the attacking forces - continous fighting just will cause more victims but not prevent the current regime from being smashed.
and then we'll see who's next on the roadmap...
which is what Prime Minister John Howard is doing on GW's dick
The ONLY true reason why AU is in IRAQ is because right now, as we speak, there is a high level government offical from the USA busy negotiating a free trade agreement between the USA and AU. Billions of bucks worth of removed tariffs etc etc etc.
Dubya wants a puppet Governement in place to secure the oil. He also wants to dig up Alaska but thats another story.
There is no statesmanship, there is no high moral purpose to the war in IRAQ, those kinds of things are merely convienient PR/propoganda.
Germany and Russia sold lots of weapons and equipment to Iraq, they never backed the war because they didnt want to lose thier best customer.
Money, greed, power, self interest, on a personal and state level.
~~~~
As far as me 'biting the hand that feeds me?'
peh....
my views, provided I had the same information as I have now, would be exactly the same, in Belarussia, in Chile, in Japan, in France, in Canada and I'd still post the same way if I had access to a computer.
I dont toe the party line, I dont swaddle myself in any particular flag. I think the US sucks on alot of levels. It's good on others.
Sensible patriotism is one thing, fervent zealous and unthinking idealism is another.
~~~~
How many times do I have to say I'd prefer to see NO-ONE DEAD, MAIMED, BEREAVED OR HOMELESS.
Unfortunately the US wont learn any lessons without having its collective nose bloodied.
~~~~
Uncle Sam is flat out too big for his boots, he has 50% of the worlds wealth and only 2% of the worlds population.
That flat out wont wash forever. One of these days he's going to either 'share' or he's going to have it taken from him, one way or the other.
Can you see yourself giving say 80% of your wealth to the rest of the world ???
I dont think so Tim.
"But I've earned it, I've fought for it, I , I, "
"Yeah? well does the Iraqi taxi driver who earns a tenth of what you do for the same job deserve his money any less ? "
And before you ask I'd be happy with regular meals a place to sleep and a little workshop to make things in. I have no desire for palaces and playstations.
[B]One thing is for sure,many civilians are being injured and killed.There should be a law banning any and all bombing of cities,no matter how good you think your weapons are.[/B][/QUOTE]
linky please. I haven't had time to follow the war, we hit something we didn't mean to?
yeah fine democracy rules and all that... I've already stated ad nauseum that I come from Australia, but I dont nessicarily prescribe to my Governments policies. In fact they suck...
[b]that can be said for all governments, see, no matter what, no government can make everyone happy[/b[
which is what Prime Minister John Howard is doing on GW's dick
[b] riiiiiiiiiight....[/b]
The ONLY true reason why AU is in IRAQ is because right now, as we speak, there is a high level government offical from the USA busy negotiating a free trade agreement between the USA and AU. Billions of bucks worth of removed tariffs etc etc etc.
[b]Possible, but you don't seem to concider other posibilities, such as that AU supports freeing a supressed nation from a person that wants to be the next Stalin....[/b]
Dubya wants a puppet Governement in place to secure the oil. He also wants to dig up Alaska but thats another story.
[b]I say dig up Alaska, and again, you seem to think that the whole reason behind this war is to get oil, I can say that that is not a reason, or at least not a major one. despite what you may think, Dubya isn't some stupid idiot, out to take over the world, yadayada. He is already trying to get car companies to make cars that are less dependant on gas, something that could have been done 20+ years ago if not for opec. but thats another story.[/b]
There is no statesmanship, there is no high moral purpose to the war in IRAQ, those kinds of things are merely convienient PR/propoganda.
[b]I beg to differ, there are a variety of reasons to enter this war,
a: Get rid of saddam, which in turn means no more support for Suicide Bombers, or less. (He paid 750,000 to the family of any suicide bomber). that in turn frees a nation of a ruler that likes to kill off his own people, though various means of tourture, testing weapons, etc. And also means less support for terrorist organizations, as it was prooven long ago that Saddam was selling weapons to such organizations. It if for these reasons that countrys such as AU and England joined us in this war.[/b]
Germany and Russia sold lots of weapons and equipment to Iraq, they never backed the war because they didnt want to lose thier best customer.
[b]True true true[/b]
Money, greed, power, self interest, on a personal and state level.
[b]this doesnt fit into the rest of your report....LOL[/b]
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As far as me 'biting the hand that feeds me?'
peh....
my views, provided I had the same information as I have now, would be exactly the same, in Belarussia, in Chile, in Japan, in France, in Canada and I'd still post the same way if I had access to a computer.
[b]you don't have access to a computer....?[/b]
I dont toe the party line, I dont swaddle myself in any particular flag. I think the US sucks on alot of levels. It's good on others.
[b]This, we can agree on whole heartedly, though probably oppicite on the particulers...[/b]
Sensible patriotism is one thing, fervent zealous and unthinking idealism is another.
[b]again, I agree. (Looks at Anla Shok. ;) )[/b]
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How many times do I have to say I'd prefer to see NO-ONE DEAD, MAIMED, BEREAVED OR HOMELESS.
[b]I agree, unfortually, won't ever happen. I mean, if your going by this statement, you should be very happy that we are going to get rid of saddam, the mans a butcher.Do some research if you think I'm paroting the media, I did. I was sickened.[/b]
Unfortunately the US wont learn any lessons without having its collective nose bloodied.
[b]Yea, but I feel sorry for the guy that bloodied it! LOL[/b]
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Uncle Sam is flat out too big for his boots, he has 50% of the worlds wealth and only 2% of the worlds population.
[b]That because China has like, 75% of it. :) But yea, Uncle Sam is a jerk in many respects. [/b]
That flat out wont wash forever. One of these days he's going to either 'share' or he's going to have it taken from him, one way or the other.
[b]Your neglecting alot here, sure we have alot of the wealth, but we also have some of the largest humanitarian aid efforts on the planets, we buy almost everything, and export alot. Come to america, you would be surprised how hard it is to find things "Made in the USA" its near impossible. We export almost everything we make, planes, cars, etc. Our whole nation is basically a selling buying market.[/b]
Can you see yourself giving say 80% of your wealth to the rest of the world ???
[b]Again, we may be wealthy, but how is that our problem? by your thinking, you want the entire world a communistic society, which, is of course the ideal scociety. However it is a catch 22, because the entire would would have nothing in the end. People don't work unless they have some personal gain. [/b]
I dont think so Tim.
[b]GO ALF![/b]
"But I've earned it, I've fought for it, I , I, "
"Yeah? well does the Iraqi taxi driver who earns a tenth of what you do for the same job deserve his money any less ? "
[b]Different nation, different worth. a global currency system is in feasable. look at the Euro, and how hard that has been.[/b]
And before you ask I'd be happy with regular meals a place to sleep and a little workshop to make things in. I have no desire for palaces and playstations.
[b]Hear hear. Its not buying things to be happy, its being happy with what you got![/b][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Konrad [/i]
[B]Well, After all not to long ago you were the one who said Bin Laden met with White House officials shortly before the 9-11 attacks. [/B][/QUOTE]
Excuse me? I never said bin Laden met with White House officials right before 9/11. You've got me confused with someone else.
I have also heard on WBBM, a CBS affiliated radio station that no WMDs have been found at all so far and no SCUD missiles have been launched either.
Look, I hate Hussein. I think he's a complete bastard who should be ousted from power. I just think that doing it this way is wrong. If the UN had supported the military actions, I'd be all for it. But they did not. I don't care why, but it was an agreement between the UN and Iraq that was being breached. WE HAVE NO RIGHT TO DO THIS!
I am an american and I loathe George W. Bush.
He represents me only in that we both process oxygen into carbon dioxide. I find myself almost diametrically opposed to every policy he endorses.
What Shrub (Yes, I WILL continue to call him that!) represents best is the SUV driving, bottled-water drinking, golf playing spoiled child of priviledge I despise so much. He's the little whiner who bribes the school bully to leave him alone and eggs him on to beat up the other kids. He's the guy who cuts you off on the road because he's too busy talking on his cell phone to notice your car. He's the CEO who lays off 20% of his work force and rakes in a multi-milloin dollar bonus. He's also the board member that sells off all his stock just before the company tanks, leaving all the employees without retirement money.
Shrub represents the worst of this country. This illegal and immoral war is just more evidence of that.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AnlaShok [/i]
[B]Excuse me? I never said bin Laden met with White House officials right before 9/11. You've got me confused with someone else. [/B][/QUOTE]
You are correct - It was Faylorn. My apologies to you. :(
[B]Just had to say this:
I am an american and I loathe George W. Bush.
He represents me only in that we both process oxygen into carbon dioxide. I find myself almost diametrically opposed to every policy he endorses.
What Shrub (Yes, I WILL continue to call him that!) represents best is the SUV driving, bottled-water drinking, golf playing spoiled child of priviledge I despise so much. He's the little whiner who bribes the school bully to leave him alone and eggs him on to beat up the other kids. He's the guy who cuts you off on the road because he's too busy talking on his cell phone to notice your car. He's the CEO who lays off 20% of his work force and rakes in a multi-milloin dollar bonus. He's also the board member that sells off all his stock just before the company tanks, leaving all the employees without retirement money.
Shrub represents the worst of this country. This illegal and immoral war is just more evidence of that. [/B][/QUOTE]
While I can understand your views (I'm stopping just short of saying I agree with it), explain exactly HOW this war is any more illegal or immoral than any other war in the past century ?
[B]linky please. I haven't had time to follow the war, we hit something we didn't mean to? [/B][/QUOTE]
I have not either folowed the war that much but what I heared on the news, if you can trust the news, some missiles hit Iran??? :confused:
I don't know if it's true!!