Bush is an honest man who puts his country above all else. I have heard stories (don't ask me for the link - if you want to complain that I don't have one, then fine, believe I'm lying. I really don't care.) about how on September 11th he did not care at all about the possibility that he might be the target of terrorist operations - his one concern was the security of his country. I really don't give a frell what he did when he was 19 or whatever. The dedication with which he is performing his duties as President speaks for itself.
To say that "all his money came from laundering money for the Nazis" is ridiculous. The man and his family live in Texas. My best bet would be that the majority of their money came from oil. If his ancestors really were caught and punnished during WWII, then wouldn't this money have been confiscated? And, if you are trying to cast some guild on him because of an association with the Nazis, then most of us are guilty of something or other. I am of German descent, though I live in America. Though my grandparents were all in the US well before the war started, it is entirely probable that a relative of mine fought on for the German army. That must mean I'm a fascist bigot!
As for the paranoia issues upon which this thread is founded - I invite any one of you to head over to Iran, Iraq, China, or North Korea and try the same things. It is impossible to keep everyone happy, safe, and secure indefinately. We cannot open our borders, lay down our guns, and welcome every passer-by with open arms. AND DON'T YOU DARE TWIST MY WORDS AND SAY "WELL, THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE ASKING...."!! I exaggerated. Live with it. My point is that the needs of the many must outweight the needs of the few (or the one). This does not mean that the many wipe out the few or go out of their way to make their lives miserable. The price of freedom is, as always, eternal vigilance.
This leads me to Iraq. Rather than split this into two smaller posts in two seprate threads, I'll just dump about that here in one concentrated (out)burst. Iraq has, for twelve years, done all it could to stall, subvert, and defy the UN resolutions demanding its disarmament. If it wanted to make an open protest, saying the resolutions were unfair, that they needed the weapons for defense, that the US was being hypocritical by having a huge nuclear stockpile while denying other countries the right even to lower technologies, yadda yadda yadda, the UN probably would have believed him had he timed it right and worded it right. Instead, he has made no secret of his contempt for the UN and his enemies. Given the resources to do it successfully, he would attack Israel and/or the US. Inspectors can do little good when they have to respect the soverignty of a government out to foil their objectives by concealing information and equipment that would incriminate it, and often equipment and material that wouldn't anyway, just to make a point. You've all heard the stories of how Iraqi scientists are terrified for their lives when interviewed by inspectors - often they have tape recorders or Iraqi intelligence officers sit in on the interview just so the government will know they didn't let anything slip. The scientsts are made afraid because the government is afraid of something.
This is all moot, of course, because we've already started to roll in. I garuantee that evidence will be found to support our suspicions. No rational, self-aware being can believe that Iraq is completely blameless in this. I further speculate that a wealth of evidence will be found. I know this is pushing it, but some of you die-hard Bush-haters and anti-Americanists may actually say "Oh, it's a good thing we did this..." Yeah right. As if. But even one of you saying that would make it worth it to me.
Liberalism in this country and abroad has taken a turn for the worst. A republic is a governmental system that involves compromises. Bush has offered plenty (how often do you hear a right-wing president endorsing hydrogen-run vehicles!) of compromises. Instead of doing the same, liberals and democrats are trying to impose utopian and idealist agendas contrary to reality. How many of the senators sitting on the democrat side of the Capitol during the state of the union clapped during that proposition about cleaner, safer cars? Didn't look like many to me.
Democrats today are putting their party over the good of their country. They do not want the country to succeed at this moment in time. If it does, this will be accredited to Bush, not them. That is why the media constantly preaches to the public about the perils of the economy and how bad things supposedly are in this nation. Take the topic of this thread! JackN's intent here is obvious - take the actions of, well, either wackos or vigilant citizens, depending on your political leanings and the individual situation, and pin them squarely on a President who has repeatedly called Islam a religion of peace and who has condemned religious persecution in the name of national security by bigoted citizens. His aim is to protect the nation from terrorist threats, not to make the life of the little guy miserable. If I continue this paragraph, I risk repeating myself.
Back on topic. Democrats in Congress are following obstructionist, partisan tactics. This course will eventually serve to gum up the machinery of our government, and nothing will be accomplished unless they turn their backs on their own legacies and their own chances in the next election and operate in a spirit of cooperation. As much as I hate to admit it, this nation needs their input. Without it, a single party, though it be the party I support, would gain complete control. As demonstrated by WWII-era Japan, Germany, and Italy, this is a very bad idea. Or, to better paraphrase it, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I end this paragraph with a plea to the democrats - play it smart, before you doom your party and my country.
Democrats and liberals base their policies on honorable, moral ideas. The environment is something that should not be abused lightly, war is often the least desirable of options for use in foreign affairs, all Americans should be afforded the opprotunity for prosperity, etc. However, putting these ideas into practice is where the problem comes in. War is an undesirable option, but is it prefferable to allowing your enemies to freely operate, multiply, and grow more powerful, after diplomatic avenues have been exhausted and blocked? The environment should not be abused, but should the crusade to protect the environment mean turning our backs on progress just as progress may provide the answers necessary to make both sides happy? Those unable to support themselves should recieve some form of aid, but should this aid be imposed on the average American in the from of high taxes? If you didn't know, over 95% of income tax revenues come from only 50% of wage earners (source: [url]http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/00in01rt.xls[/url]).
You may have noticed that earlier I said the word anti-american eariler. Before each one of you jumps up and says "I'm not anti-american! I'm anti-Bush and anti-what-America-is-now-and-is-turning-into!" let [I]me[/I] define what [I]I[/I] mean by anti-american. The problem here is that liberals have this vision of America as a utopia. Utopia is unattainable for human beings. (see: Soviet Union and all those other communist regimes). Uh-oh, I can hear it comming! The communists on the board are about to say something to the effect of "That wasn't true communism, true communism would have had this and this and this..." That is not the point. They meant well. They failed. That is the point. If you wish to debate communism, I kindly ask that you start a new thread so that you can kick my butt there. Time to get back on topic.
The point is that utopia is unattainable, yet that is what liberals and democrats see America as in their minds or aim to shape it into. The see as evil the more unpleasant necessities of maintaning a state. They see Bush as evil because he takes a stand for what he believes in. I submit that, if you see Bush as evil, you see America as evil! Bush stands for America! Bush is ruling in the spirit and principles upon which America was founded. We stand fro freedom. By attacking Iraq, we are defending our freedom and helping the Iraqis to attain theirs. If you think it's such a bad idea to impose democracy on the former state of an oppressive government, why don't you ask Japan, Germany, Italy, and Eastern European former Soviet-Bloc nations.
One last thing. Unilateralism. Check the following link if you think that the US is going it alone, contrary to world opinion: [url]http://canada.com/national/story.asp?id=2857FA87-21EF-4E1B-9019-F1E0637ED0FE[/url]
The "Listen to Rush...Take Judy's Call" clip on [url]http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_031903/content/stop_the_tape.guest.html[/url] best sums up what I am trying to say.
Edit: [url]http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_031903/content/cutting_edge.guest.html[/url] sums it up well too.
Edit II: And if any of you balk at me quoting Rush Limbaugh, too bad! If I was supposed to take ZMag and World Socialist Web Site articles seriously, you can endure these.
Thank you for that, I don't agree with it all but it was wonderful for the most part and the time and effort taken is appreciated - I don't know if you'd take it but if I were there I'd want to shake your hand.
Excuse me, but your little rant falls right in line with the talking points released by the Heritage Foundation.
Now let me ask you one question, though I doubt a DittoHead like yourself knows the answer anyway.
WHERE THE FUCK DO YOU GET THIS STUPID IDEA THAT LIBERALS WANT TO DESTROY AMERICA??
It's all I hear from Rush, Coulter, Hannity, O-Reilly et al.
It's bullshit. Pure bullshit. This country was founded on the ideal of Free Speech, but lately if you disagree with our government propaganda, you're labeled as a seditionist and unamerican!
We want our country toi succeed. We always have. How about the statistic that 3% of the population has 90% of the wealth in this country? They don't pay 90% of the taxes, though.
I pity you guys who are so sucked into the idiocy of the Republican platform.
Trickle-down economics does not work.
This was never a Christian nation and a "Revival" cannot happen because it was never our way of life to begin with.
Abortion is not anti-Christian. The Old Testament God always liked seeing conquered pregnant women "ripped open."
"Tax and Spend" is better than "Borrow and Waste."
War should never be the first answer instead of a last resort.
Schools and education are important if you want to spend less on jails later.
Affirmative action does not mean "Quotas."
Having some token blacks in your administraion does not stop you from being a racist.
I don't think he ever said that in his post, in fact he made it very clear that the end goal of most Democrats is a good one.
I don’t speak for him but I think the conservatives/republicans have a few people who have tried to hijack the party like Phil Graham just the same the Democrats/Liberals are having a real problem controlling their image. There are groups on both sides who are slick and misrepresent what they are doing as 'good' when they really have ulterior motives. There are big business conservatives who don’t give to charities who want to keep the poor at bay by staying rich and stealing from the poor. Likewise there are limousine liberals who love a welfare system because it's the best way to keep the peasants dependant and in line with what they want.
My position is there is a place in the middle that is perfect and I think you are the victim of just as much propaganda as anyone.
I think Canada and Europe is dangerously close to being to far to the left with all their (currently broke) government social programs. On top of that I've alway felt to much socialism creates a danger of dependency among the poor which opens the door to totalitarian rule. On the other hand I also think the extent to which "trickle down economics" was gone to in the 80's didn't work (I favor total tax reform along with SS and Medicare reform - it's the only answer to the failed systems). My moderate position on economics including my pro gun rights stance (with background check) and pro-choice stance (no late term elective 'vacuum or coat hanger' stuff - Edit Unless mothers life in danger or the fetus has poorly developed) makes it very difficult for me to vote. The Environmental Terrorists, Socialists, total firearm banners, Hand out Seekers, and pro central planing types have the Democrats ears. While the Religious Zealots, criminal business, and social planning types have the Republicans ears.
As far as your comments about vocal dissidence - Have you been arrested by a government agency? Who are you being labeled by? Private citizens who are on the loony fringe on my side but are also expressing there opinion - Meanwhile I'm being labeled a "War Monger, Arab/Muslim Hater, Willing to trade Blood for Oil, Racist, working class hater" by the loonies on your side.
No one (I certainly didn't) said this was a Christian nation (perhaps dominated by but not only free for), this is a nation where you can practice your religion or lack there of without fear from the government. I think that still stands, though once again there has been intolerance shown by a few individuals. If you are concerned about the investigations into Muslim mosques laundering money - well I know the LDS church is under the same kind of scrutiny (thank goodness) so all these Religions/Businesses are being watched for illegal activity when clues point to them.
[B] "Tax and Spend" is better than "Borrow and Waste." [/B]
Are you kidding - neither of them is good. However, you said you don’t want to get into an economics argument with me. I will say that making that kind of a comment makes the extreme polarization of your position very clear.
[B] "War should never be the first answer instead of a last resort." [/B]
I don't think anyone will disagree with you, the problem is some believe we were at the last resort. It is the same as "Guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt." There was always the possibility an Alien made him do it… do you see my point, it's a mater of perspective. For better or worse the war in Iraq has begun, now is the time to talk about what to do next. "Don't stop thinking about tomorrow" quit using your 20/20 hindsight and tell us exactly what you see and what you want to see for the future. That way you can prove just how good a "profit" you really are.
[B] "Schools and education are important if you want to spend less on jails later." [/B]
Your right, but I'll say it again, some States dropped the ball, President Bush didn't cause the current education problem so don't blame him. Trust me on this, my mother is a teacher who votes moderate democrat, she thinks the NEA has been hijacked by people looking for upward mobility and jobs at the National level - a nationaly moderated/controlled education system would be a disaster.
Finally, you seem to imply that the Republican Party/Bush is racist, I find that just as insulting as someone who might say the Democrats are looking out only for the interest of Homosexuals.
Are you and extremist? I think maybe, unless you are just so upset that Al Gore is not in the White House that you have to lash out at everything and go to far without balance. Well, it's not helping your cause in this moderates mind. If you are an extremist you are as bad as Phil Graham.
I am grey, I have all the voting power in this country.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Konrad [/i]
[B] Meanwhile I'm being labeled a "War Monger, Arab/Muslim Hater, Willing to trade Blood for Oil, Racist, working class hater" by the loonies on your side. [/B][/QUOTE]
This point is amusing...
For my view of things I've seen labels like: "goose stepping nazi", "warmonger", and the other's you've got listed. Come on!
I've got no friggin' sympathy for people who are labeled "un american" and then turn around and call me a Nazi for my views.
I have not called anyone here a Nazi. I would not do so, ever.
I am just very frustrated by all the crap spewed by Rush, Hannity, Coulter, etc. There used to be the idea that both parties were doing what they thought was best for this country, but they differred on the actual policies. Now we get a lot of accusations by the very loud conservative talk show hosts of liberals trying to destroy this country. It's insulting.
Now I always considered myself fairly centrist as far as politics go. I have noticed that, though my views remain the same, they are now being perceived as extreme leftist.
I do not support the abolition of the death penalty. Never have. Some people deserve to fry.
I am pro choice. I do not like abortion much, but it's not my body that will ever carry a child. I hate seeing this "partial-birth abortion" being used as a scare tactic. It's a procedure that is only used if the life of the mother is in danger or the fetus is too badly damaged to survive. Trying to pass laws about it is legislation designed to put a foot in the door to ban abortion altogether.
I like background checks for gun purchases. I think the gun show loopholes need to be closed. I also think that people have the right to own guns. Most liberals feel this way as well.
I keep hearing conservative economists saying that it takes up to ten years for changes in economic policy to manifest. If that were true, and if the Republican policies really worked, we would have been in the greatest economic boom ever during Bush 1's first term!
I still feel that Bush has been wanting to wage a war against Iraq and planned to do so whether or not diplomacy was working. I saw progress being made in Iraq, but all that is lost now that the missiles are flying.
Yes, I am still pissed that we have a "president" who was installed by the US Supreme Court instead of the voting public. I am pissed that this poisonous little toad of a man is now in a position to send our troops into harms way for his little vendetta. I am also pissed at Al Gore for running such a pathetic campaign that a wastrel like Shrub could ever get near the White House.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by AnlaShok [/i]
[B]I have not called anyone here a Nazi. I would not do so, ever. [/B][/QUOTE]
My appologies, I wasn't inferring that you have, but I have seen it elsewhere on other forums and such, and in fact, there was a quick blurb about some families with members who serve in the US armed forces being called Nazi's by friends and such that live in Europe on CNN last night. Just wanted to point out the irony (as I saw it) of the whole name calling game at play here.
It never fails that if everyone (including myself) calm down for a minute they often find they have more in common than different. The problem is what to do about the differences while the politicians screw everything up for us.
I personally can't watch Rush gush for more than two minutes without getting a headache - Just like I can't watch "NOW" on PBS. (NOW the TV show not the women's organization)
As far as you being a moderate I think the perception problem comes from the use of "Shrub." Just as people used to use "Klinton" and such and it didn't do well for them.
-----------------------
I wanted to add (not directed at you Anlashok) that I'm watching these protests in San Francisco, I see some of the protestors throwing rocks, glass, and rebarb and the police who are only trying to keep business entrances open. They are just doing thier jobs. Unless you are truly ready to revolt I don't think you should be using violence to express your unhappiness with a war. Right? Just as you shouldn't say your not un-American and then wave US flags upside down. There needs to be a certain level of self policing otherwise the anarchists who come out for every protests no mater what the protest is about just looking for a reason to turn the protest into a riot are going to ruin the cause.
Konrad, I'd gladly have accepted that offer to shake my hand, but now I feel compelled to ask to shake yours. Your speech was just as beautiful. One point you made that I couldn't have made better myself was about how there are not-nice people on both sides of this. To let these people define your view of an entire group of people sharing the same party or ideology is wrong.
Konrad was right to draw the conclusion from my rant that I do not believe that liberals are out to destroy america. Yes, I disagree with them. But, I have to respect their beliefs, because they are motivated by what they believe is best for America. For anyone to say that their intentions is not good is as much of an affront to me as to say Bush's are not good. Anyone who thinks that Bush wakes up in the morning and says "How can I shaft America and make the rich richer today?" is an idiot. I make no apologies for that.
The problem is that they are doing the wrong things for the right reasons. They are completely unwilling to compromise. They see their way as the only way. Our government cannot function without compromise. Either it will stagnate or one party will gain complete control. AnlaShok would be falling on his sword at that point if he thinks we're turning into a fascist police state already.
Because Liberals are starting to believe that their way is the only way, the current situation, with a Republican in the White House and Republicans controlling the Senate and House, is turning out to be a disaster for them. People are starting to see their partisan and obstructionist tactics for what they are. They've been using the same playbook since well before the Clinton administration. They see the losses in the electons, and their reaction is to become more outspoken and more fanatical. They are losing credibility from this. Some are driven so far as to believe that liberals really are out to destroy America. (See my earlier statement on the sanity of people who believe this. Down boy.)
On the subject of Rush Limbaugh: I can see exactly why you think these things about him. The man jokes way too much. People like AnlaShok, who probably don't listen to him regularly, may tune into him and hear him ranting and raving, and make the mistake of taking him seriously and walking away thinking he's a lunatic. Do not be so quick to file him away as a fanatic, however. While his views are even more to the right than mine, his show is a valuable source of information. The media is biased to the left (notice how right-wingers always say that, and left-wingers always say the opposite...weird to me....), and I am bombarded by its side every single freakin' day. His show provides that other side to that three edged sword. I do not always agree with him. If I did I would be no different from those I have set out to defeat.
Comments
And then switch from QWERTY to Dvorak. You'll be much happier.
Bush is an honest man who puts his country above all else. I have heard stories (don't ask me for the link - if you want to complain that I don't have one, then fine, believe I'm lying. I really don't care.) about how on September 11th he did not care at all about the possibility that he might be the target of terrorist operations - his one concern was the security of his country. I really don't give a frell what he did when he was 19 or whatever. The dedication with which he is performing his duties as President speaks for itself.
To say that "all his money came from laundering money for the Nazis" is ridiculous. The man and his family live in Texas. My best bet would be that the majority of their money came from oil. If his ancestors really were caught and punnished during WWII, then wouldn't this money have been confiscated? And, if you are trying to cast some guild on him because of an association with the Nazis, then most of us are guilty of something or other. I am of German descent, though I live in America. Though my grandparents were all in the US well before the war started, it is entirely probable that a relative of mine fought on for the German army. That must mean I'm a fascist bigot!
As for the paranoia issues upon which this thread is founded - I invite any one of you to head over to Iran, Iraq, China, or North Korea and try the same things. It is impossible to keep everyone happy, safe, and secure indefinately. We cannot open our borders, lay down our guns, and welcome every passer-by with open arms. AND DON'T YOU DARE TWIST MY WORDS AND SAY "WELL, THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE ASKING...."!! I exaggerated. Live with it. My point is that the needs of the many must outweight the needs of the few (or the one). This does not mean that the many wipe out the few or go out of their way to make their lives miserable. The price of freedom is, as always, eternal vigilance.
This leads me to Iraq. Rather than split this into two smaller posts in two seprate threads, I'll just dump about that here in one concentrated (out)burst. Iraq has, for twelve years, done all it could to stall, subvert, and defy the UN resolutions demanding its disarmament. If it wanted to make an open protest, saying the resolutions were unfair, that they needed the weapons for defense, that the US was being hypocritical by having a huge nuclear stockpile while denying other countries the right even to lower technologies, yadda yadda yadda, the UN probably would have believed him had he timed it right and worded it right. Instead, he has made no secret of his contempt for the UN and his enemies. Given the resources to do it successfully, he would attack Israel and/or the US. Inspectors can do little good when they have to respect the soverignty of a government out to foil their objectives by concealing information and equipment that would incriminate it, and often equipment and material that wouldn't anyway, just to make a point. You've all heard the stories of how Iraqi scientists are terrified for their lives when interviewed by inspectors - often they have tape recorders or Iraqi intelligence officers sit in on the interview just so the government will know they didn't let anything slip. The scientsts are made afraid because the government is afraid of something.
This is all moot, of course, because we've already started to roll in. I garuantee that evidence will be found to support our suspicions. No rational, self-aware being can believe that Iraq is completely blameless in this. I further speculate that a wealth of evidence will be found. I know this is pushing it, but some of you die-hard Bush-haters and anti-Americanists may actually say "Oh, it's a good thing we did this..." Yeah right. As if. But even one of you saying that would make it worth it to me.
Liberalism in this country and abroad has taken a turn for the worst. A republic is a governmental system that involves compromises. Bush has offered plenty (how often do you hear a right-wing president endorsing hydrogen-run vehicles!) of compromises. Instead of doing the same, liberals and democrats are trying to impose utopian and idealist agendas contrary to reality. How many of the senators sitting on the democrat side of the Capitol during the state of the union clapped during that proposition about cleaner, safer cars? Didn't look like many to me.
Democrats today are putting their party over the good of their country. They do not want the country to succeed at this moment in time. If it does, this will be accredited to Bush, not them. That is why the media constantly preaches to the public about the perils of the economy and how bad things supposedly are in this nation. Take the topic of this thread! JackN's intent here is obvious - take the actions of, well, either wackos or vigilant citizens, depending on your political leanings and the individual situation, and pin them squarely on a President who has repeatedly called Islam a religion of peace and who has condemned religious persecution in the name of national security by bigoted citizens. His aim is to protect the nation from terrorist threats, not to make the life of the little guy miserable. If I continue this paragraph, I risk repeating myself.
Back on topic. Democrats in Congress are following obstructionist, partisan tactics. This course will eventually serve to gum up the machinery of our government, and nothing will be accomplished unless they turn their backs on their own legacies and their own chances in the next election and operate in a spirit of cooperation. As much as I hate to admit it, this nation needs their input. Without it, a single party, though it be the party I support, would gain complete control. As demonstrated by WWII-era Japan, Germany, and Italy, this is a very bad idea. Or, to better paraphrase it, absolute power corrupts absolutely. I end this paragraph with a plea to the democrats - play it smart, before you doom your party and my country.
Democrats and liberals base their policies on honorable, moral ideas. The environment is something that should not be abused lightly, war is often the least desirable of options for use in foreign affairs, all Americans should be afforded the opprotunity for prosperity, etc. However, putting these ideas into practice is where the problem comes in. War is an undesirable option, but is it prefferable to allowing your enemies to freely operate, multiply, and grow more powerful, after diplomatic avenues have been exhausted and blocked? The environment should not be abused, but should the crusade to protect the environment mean turning our backs on progress just as progress may provide the answers necessary to make both sides happy? Those unable to support themselves should recieve some form of aid, but should this aid be imposed on the average American in the from of high taxes? If you didn't know, over 95% of income tax revenues come from only 50% of wage earners (source: [url]http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/00in01rt.xls[/url]).
You may have noticed that earlier I said the word anti-american eariler. Before each one of you jumps up and says "I'm not anti-american! I'm anti-Bush and anti-what-America-is-now-and-is-turning-into!" let [I]me[/I] define what [I]I[/I] mean by anti-american. The problem here is that liberals have this vision of America as a utopia. Utopia is unattainable for human beings. (see: Soviet Union and all those other communist regimes). Uh-oh, I can hear it comming! The communists on the board are about to say something to the effect of "That wasn't true communism, true communism would have had this and this and this..." That is not the point. They meant well. They failed. That is the point. If you wish to debate communism, I kindly ask that you start a new thread so that you can kick my butt there. Time to get back on topic.
The point is that utopia is unattainable, yet that is what liberals and democrats see America as in their minds or aim to shape it into. The see as evil the more unpleasant necessities of maintaning a state. They see Bush as evil because he takes a stand for what he believes in. I submit that, if you see Bush as evil, you see America as evil! Bush stands for America! Bush is ruling in the spirit and principles upon which America was founded. We stand fro freedom. By attacking Iraq, we are defending our freedom and helping the Iraqis to attain theirs. If you think it's such a bad idea to impose democracy on the former state of an oppressive government, why don't you ask Japan, Germany, Italy, and Eastern European former Soviet-Bloc nations.
One last thing. Unilateralism. Check the following link if you think that the US is going it alone, contrary to world opinion: [url]http://canada.com/national/story.asp?id=2857FA87-21EF-4E1B-9019-F1E0637ED0FE[/url]
The "Listen to Rush...Take Judy's Call" clip on [url]http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_031903/content/stop_the_tape.guest.html[/url] best sums up what I am trying to say.
Edit: [url]http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_031903/content/cutting_edge.guest.html[/url] sums it up well too.
Edit II: And if any of you balk at me quoting Rush Limbaugh, too bad! If I was supposed to take ZMag and World Socialist Web Site articles seriously, you can endure these.
Now let me ask you one question, though I doubt a DittoHead like yourself knows the answer anyway.
WHERE THE FUCK DO YOU GET THIS STUPID IDEA THAT LIBERALS WANT TO DESTROY AMERICA??
It's all I hear from Rush, Coulter, Hannity, O-Reilly et al.
It's bullshit. Pure bullshit. This country was founded on the ideal of Free Speech, but lately if you disagree with our government propaganda, you're labeled as a seditionist and unamerican!
We want our country toi succeed. We always have. How about the statistic that 3% of the population has 90% of the wealth in this country? They don't pay 90% of the taxes, though.
I pity you guys who are so sucked into the idiocy of the Republican platform.
Trickle-down economics does not work.
This was never a Christian nation and a "Revival" cannot happen because it was never our way of life to begin with.
Abortion is not anti-Christian. The Old Testament God always liked seeing conquered pregnant women "ripped open."
"Tax and Spend" is better than "Borrow and Waste."
War should never be the first answer instead of a last resort.
Schools and education are important if you want to spend less on jails later.
Affirmative action does not mean "Quotas."
Having some token blacks in your administraion does not stop you from being a racist.
The media stopped being liberal back in the 70s.
I don’t speak for him but I think the conservatives/republicans have a few people who have tried to hijack the party like Phil Graham just the same the Democrats/Liberals are having a real problem controlling their image. There are groups on both sides who are slick and misrepresent what they are doing as 'good' when they really have ulterior motives. There are big business conservatives who don’t give to charities who want to keep the poor at bay by staying rich and stealing from the poor. Likewise there are limousine liberals who love a welfare system because it's the best way to keep the peasants dependant and in line with what they want.
My position is there is a place in the middle that is perfect and I think you are the victim of just as much propaganda as anyone.
I think Canada and Europe is dangerously close to being to far to the left with all their (currently broke) government social programs. On top of that I've alway felt to much socialism creates a danger of dependency among the poor which opens the door to totalitarian rule. On the other hand I also think the extent to which "trickle down economics" was gone to in the 80's didn't work (I favor total tax reform along with SS and Medicare reform - it's the only answer to the failed systems). My moderate position on economics including my pro gun rights stance (with background check) and pro-choice stance (no late term elective 'vacuum or coat hanger' stuff - Edit Unless mothers life in danger or the fetus has poorly developed) makes it very difficult for me to vote. The Environmental Terrorists, Socialists, total firearm banners, Hand out Seekers, and pro central planing types have the Democrats ears. While the Religious Zealots, criminal business, and social planning types have the Republicans ears.
As far as your comments about vocal dissidence - Have you been arrested by a government agency? Who are you being labeled by? Private citizens who are on the loony fringe on my side but are also expressing there opinion - Meanwhile I'm being labeled a "War Monger, Arab/Muslim Hater, Willing to trade Blood for Oil, Racist, working class hater" by the loonies on your side.
No one (I certainly didn't) said this was a Christian nation (perhaps dominated by but not only free for), this is a nation where you can practice your religion or lack there of without fear from the government. I think that still stands, though once again there has been intolerance shown by a few individuals. If you are concerned about the investigations into Muslim mosques laundering money - well I know the LDS church is under the same kind of scrutiny (thank goodness) so all these Religions/Businesses are being watched for illegal activity when clues point to them.
[B] "Tax and Spend" is better than "Borrow and Waste." [/B]
Are you kidding - neither of them is good. However, you said you don’t want to get into an economics argument with me. I will say that making that kind of a comment makes the extreme polarization of your position very clear.
[B] "War should never be the first answer instead of a last resort." [/B]
I don't think anyone will disagree with you, the problem is some believe we were at the last resort. It is the same as "Guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt." There was always the possibility an Alien made him do it… do you see my point, it's a mater of perspective. For better or worse the war in Iraq has begun, now is the time to talk about what to do next. "Don't stop thinking about tomorrow" quit using your 20/20 hindsight and tell us exactly what you see and what you want to see for the future. That way you can prove just how good a "profit" you really are.
[B] "Schools and education are important if you want to spend less on jails later." [/B]
Your right, but I'll say it again, some States dropped the ball, President Bush didn't cause the current education problem so don't blame him. Trust me on this, my mother is a teacher who votes moderate democrat, she thinks the NEA has been hijacked by people looking for upward mobility and jobs at the National level - a nationaly moderated/controlled education system would be a disaster.
Finally, you seem to imply that the Republican Party/Bush is racist, I find that just as insulting as someone who might say the Democrats are looking out only for the interest of Homosexuals.
Are you and extremist? I think maybe, unless you are just so upset that Al Gore is not in the White House that you have to lash out at everything and go to far without balance. Well, it's not helping your cause in this moderates mind. If you are an extremist you are as bad as Phil Graham.
I am grey, I have all the voting power in this country.
[B] Meanwhile I'm being labeled a "War Monger, Arab/Muslim Hater, Willing to trade Blood for Oil, Racist, working class hater" by the loonies on your side. [/B][/QUOTE]
This point is amusing...
For my view of things I've seen labels like: "goose stepping nazi", "warmonger", and the other's you've got listed. Come on!
I've got no friggin' sympathy for people who are labeled "un american" and then turn around and call me a Nazi for my views.
I am just very frustrated by all the crap spewed by Rush, Hannity, Coulter, etc. There used to be the idea that both parties were doing what they thought was best for this country, but they differred on the actual policies. Now we get a lot of accusations by the very loud conservative talk show hosts of liberals trying to destroy this country. It's insulting.
Now I always considered myself fairly centrist as far as politics go. I have noticed that, though my views remain the same, they are now being perceived as extreme leftist.
I do not support the abolition of the death penalty. Never have. Some people deserve to fry.
I am pro choice. I do not like abortion much, but it's not my body that will ever carry a child. I hate seeing this "partial-birth abortion" being used as a scare tactic. It's a procedure that is only used if the life of the mother is in danger or the fetus is too badly damaged to survive. Trying to pass laws about it is legislation designed to put a foot in the door to ban abortion altogether.
I like background checks for gun purchases. I think the gun show loopholes need to be closed. I also think that people have the right to own guns. Most liberals feel this way as well.
I keep hearing conservative economists saying that it takes up to ten years for changes in economic policy to manifest. If that were true, and if the Republican policies really worked, we would have been in the greatest economic boom ever during Bush 1's first term!
I still feel that Bush has been wanting to wage a war against Iraq and planned to do so whether or not diplomacy was working. I saw progress being made in Iraq, but all that is lost now that the missiles are flying.
Yes, I am still pissed that we have a "president" who was installed by the US Supreme Court instead of the voting public. I am pissed that this poisonous little toad of a man is now in a position to send our troops into harms way for his little vendetta. I am also pissed at Al Gore for running such a pathetic campaign that a wastrel like Shrub could ever get near the White House.
Does that explain my views well enough?
[B]I have not called anyone here a Nazi. I would not do so, ever. [/B][/QUOTE]
My appologies, I wasn't inferring that you have, but I have seen it elsewhere on other forums and such, and in fact, there was a quick blurb about some families with members who serve in the US armed forces being called Nazi's by friends and such that live in Europe on CNN last night. Just wanted to point out the irony (as I saw it) of the whole name calling game at play here.
I personally can't watch Rush gush for more than two minutes without getting a headache - Just like I can't watch "NOW" on PBS. (NOW the TV show not the women's organization)
As far as you being a moderate I think the perception problem comes from the use of "Shrub." Just as people used to use "Klinton" and such and it didn't do well for them.
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I wanted to add (not directed at you Anlashok) that I'm watching these protests in San Francisco, I see some of the protestors throwing rocks, glass, and rebarb and the police who are only trying to keep business entrances open. They are just doing thier jobs. Unless you are truly ready to revolt I don't think you should be using violence to express your unhappiness with a war. Right? Just as you shouldn't say your not un-American and then wave US flags upside down. There needs to be a certain level of self policing otherwise the anarchists who come out for every protests no mater what the protest is about just looking for a reason to turn the protest into a riot are going to ruin the cause.
Konrad, I'd gladly have accepted that offer to shake my hand, but now I feel compelled to ask to shake yours. Your speech was just as beautiful. One point you made that I couldn't have made better myself was about how there are not-nice people on both sides of this. To let these people define your view of an entire group of people sharing the same party or ideology is wrong.
Konrad was right to draw the conclusion from my rant that I do not believe that liberals are out to destroy america. Yes, I disagree with them. But, I have to respect their beliefs, because they are motivated by what they believe is best for America. For anyone to say that their intentions is not good is as much of an affront to me as to say Bush's are not good. Anyone who thinks that Bush wakes up in the morning and says "How can I shaft America and make the rich richer today?" is an idiot. I make no apologies for that.
The problem is that they are doing the wrong things for the right reasons. They are completely unwilling to compromise. They see their way as the only way. Our government cannot function without compromise. Either it will stagnate or one party will gain complete control. AnlaShok would be falling on his sword at that point if he thinks we're turning into a fascist police state already.
Because Liberals are starting to believe that their way is the only way, the current situation, with a Republican in the White House and Republicans controlling the Senate and House, is turning out to be a disaster for them. People are starting to see their partisan and obstructionist tactics for what they are. They've been using the same playbook since well before the Clinton administration. They see the losses in the electons, and their reaction is to become more outspoken and more fanatical. They are losing credibility from this. Some are driven so far as to believe that liberals really are out to destroy America. (See my earlier statement on the sanity of people who believe this. Down boy.)
On the subject of Rush Limbaugh: I can see exactly why you think these things about him. The man jokes way too much. People like AnlaShok, who probably don't listen to him regularly, may tune into him and hear him ranting and raving, and make the mistake of taking him seriously and walking away thinking he's a lunatic. Do not be so quick to file him away as a fanatic, however. While his views are even more to the right than mine, his show is a valuable source of information. The media is biased to the left (notice how right-wingers always say that, and left-wingers always say the opposite...weird to me....), and I am bombarded by its side every single freakin' day. His show provides that other side to that three edged sword. I do not always agree with him. If I did I would be no different from those I have set out to defeat.