[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vertigo1 [/i]
[B]You're complaining over a few avatars that have no representation whatsoever on those people that commited those attrocities? Dude, you're pathetic. Grow some skin for crying out loud! Shit, I'm sick of all the fucking whiners springing up all over the net.
Because of a couple of whiners on the [url=http://www.descentbb.net/]DBB[/url], we lost our sigs. All because one person had "JFC" in his signature. :rolleyes: I will not see that happen here because someone doesn't like a couple of things so they bawl their eyes out like a little baby. I got news for you buddy. In the real world, things aren't all fluffy like you see on Pleastantville or Happy Days. I will not see this place turn into a PC fanboy zone so suck it up Konrad. Its a big bad world out there so you're just going to have to get over it and move on. [/B][/QUOTE]
I never complained about anything,I simply pointed out that most people will see symbols such as the hammer and sickel as a representation of one of the most oppressive governments in human history. Its their right to express whatever views or opinions they want, just as it is my right to oppose those views or in this case, symbols as i see fit. I believe Konrad expressed a similar view.
I am not a PC cop, and I oppose censorship, or keeping ones mouth shut because it might offend someone. However if someone shows a political view that is controversial, that person must be prepared to weather an assortment of criticism, debate, and opposition.
I was trying to take A2597's comments to heart - then Vertigo1 and AnlaShok reminded me that it's about the fact that someone is using those images not to covey an ideal in a reasonable manner but rather to be in your face.
Frankly I'd rather not grow a thick skin; I'd rather live in a society where people show some respect and consideration. As A2597 showed me, unless the person is totally closed minded you are more likely to bring about change in thought by writing something that is understanding, careful, considered, and logical rather than in your face and upsetting like Vertigo1's comments or unnecessary flag waving.
This was never about communal or communist systems and whether they are valid or not. (I believe they are an ideal on a local level, and have worked well in the past; just never on a national level.) My original commentary was about the display of a banner that was of a nation that for most of its history was ruled by tyrants who killed - regardless of what number you want to believe. I stand by the comment that if you truly want to encourage your cause you should take a lesson from A2597's style of persuasion - it helped soften my feelings - though I would still rather not see that banner.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JackN [/i]
[B]I noticed it weeks ago... I was just ignoring it.
;)
Now, if you want to see something REALLY offensive, start using the European Union flag of Blue with 12 Yellow stars, and watch how many people start whining...
:D [/B][/QUOTE]
Damn right I would start whining if anyone used the EU flag as avatar!
Well, I have an idea. The yellow hammer and sickle on a red background is not a symbol of communism, but the flag of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Saying it represents communism is like saying the Star Spangled Banner (the flag, not the song) represents freedom. It don't. It represents the United States of America. If the U.S. became a dictatorial regime tomorrow, it would still have the same exact damned flag as today.
So my idea is, rather than using a symbol of a [i]dead and failed tyrannical nation[/i], why not use a less nationalistic symbol, like a pink hammer and sickle on a pastel blue background. I'm sorry, but I can't think of anything else that represents communism. It isn't my bag.
Guys I think we're blowing thing way out of proportion.
Throughout history there have been symbols that have been corrupted by their true meanings.
The hammer and scicle for one, the swastika for another.
Did you know that there are even churches that have swastikas carved into the stones they are built with? Did you also know that the original swastika has it's "arms" running exactly paralell and perpendicular to the ground and that the Nazi swastika is a perversion in the truest sence.
But it's not the only one. Take the pentagram for example. That is, a 5 pointed star surrounded by a circle. Originaly a symbol of strength, protection and the like, the Catholic church later twisted it into it's satanic meaning.
Some see the hammer and sicle as a sign of "the people", Some see it as a sign of an oppressive and brutal government. Some see the swastika as a symble of hope and good luck. Others see only the millions of innocents butchered by the nazi's. Some see the pentagram as an ancient symbol for protection and strength, others see only satanism. Yet to others, these 3 things mean nothing.
point is.. just because you interpret something to mean the negative, doesn't neccesarily mean that is what the user of that something means.
It should be noted that the Pentagram has had many meanings.
It's two most common I listed above but I also wanted to add that it seems (from various searches via google) that in current wiccan beliefs, the pentagram represents that religion much as the crusifix does christianity. For their purposes the pentagram represents the elements (in their beliefs) of earth, air, fire, water and spirit, bound by the circle of life, death and rebirth. (Hence the 5 pointed star set in a circle.) Granted, due to the symbols...age... it has been interpreted many different ways. I'm just listing some of the more common ones.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Konrad [/i]
[B]I was trying to take A2597's comments to heart - then Vertigo1 and AnlaShok reminded me that it's about the fact that someone is using those images not to covey an ideal in a reasonable manner but rather to be in your face.
Frankly I'd rather not grow a thick skin; I'd rather live in a society where people show some respect and consideration. As A2597 showed me, unless the person is totally closed minded you are more likely to bring about change in thought by writing something that is understanding, careful, considered, and logical rather than in your face and upsetting like Vertigo1's comments or unnecessary flag waving.
This was never about communal or communist systems and whether they are valid or not. (I believe they are an ideal on a local level, and have worked well in the past; just never on a national level.) My original commentary was about the display of a banner that was of a nation that for most of its history was ruled by tyrants who killed - regardless of what number you want to believe. I stand by the comment that if you truly want to encourage your cause you should take a lesson from A2597's style of persuasion - it helped soften my feelings - though I would still rather not see that banner. [/B][/QUOTE]
Translation: WAH! WAH! WAH! You should all cator to the minority! I don't care that the flags in question have no bearing on the people that committed those attrocities all those yars ago!
That would be like me having a US flag mounted on the back of my truck and driving it all over Baghdad and me complaining that the Iraqi flag is offensive and that it should be removed just becuase I say so.
Now, that being said...if the avatars in question were truely offensive (like the KKK crap, or something deliberately offensive in general) then yes, I would agree with you. However, the avatars you're complaining about are harmless and aren't hurting anyone. You are making a big deal out of nothing. Give it a rest and move on already!
Communism failed for one specific reason. Greed. Leaders just didn't want to give up the power they had over the others, and it eventually turned into a corrupt bastard child of itself.
There is not a snowballs chance in hell that communism will EVER work. You know why? Human greed. No matter what happens, that is constant. Until we "evolve" this will never happen. It is too easy to say, "why should I work hard? Its not like it matters. I get paid the same amount as the slum who could care less about his job."
I see all of you communists backed off of your claims that Lenin was great.
[b]More importantly, firstones has NEVER been about political beliefs. It is a corruption of the multinational/multireligious/multibelief community that we have here.[/b] When debates come up, debate. But this place has never been one to wave your flag- any flag, no matter which one. We need to fix this. Perhaps just remove the whole avatar thing completely. I never really cared for the idea, period.
See, communism is a great idea. Unfortunately, it just won't work.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vertigo1 [/i]
[B]Translation: WAH! WAH! WAH! You should all cator to the minority! I don't care that the flags in question have no bearing on the people that committed those attrocities all those yars ago!
That would be like me having a US flag mounted on the back of my truck and driving it all over Baghdad and me complaining that the Iraqi flag is offensive and that it should be removed just becuase I say so.[/B][/QUOTE]
I don't know where you're getting your line of thinking from. Honestly, I can't figure out half of what you were trying to write there - especially the second paragraph. I wish you would take a step back, cool down, and read every post again carefully with an open mind.
My point all along has been that in my opinion I don't think they are helpfull to their cause, rather they are deliberately 'in your face.'
I can tell it comes down to a fundamental difference in perspective on life, you can be happy in a society where everyone has thick skin, I'll be happy hoping people can learn to be considerate in thier freedoms and come up with smarter ways to educate others about their values.
(I'm trust the response will not simply be a bunch of insults related to what you think my level of intelligence is.)
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Communism and democracy are both very good political systems until you add one thing: people.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Biggles [/i]
[B]Communism and democracy are both very good political systems until you add one thing: people. [/B][/QUOTE]
Did you say that last post on Communism and democracy???
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Captain,Simmonds [/i]
[B]T
And to the people who say Communism Will not work..... I remeber people once said that Democracy would not work..... And look what we have now
And Communism would work very well when Combined with Democracy..
NOTE: Democracy and Communism are very simular things [/B][/QUOTE]
Actualy democray and communism are not terribly similar, and The arguments about democracy are not working, democracies eventualy decay and return to being despotic regiems, Plato was right.
Communism or at least the marxian version of it ends up in a essentialy anarchistic utopia where people have developed some universal abstract shared super morality and the need for a government has disappeared. I believe in human nautre, it exists and is fundamentaly corrupt, this is why all societies at their core have the same damn problems.
Frankly humanity isnt capable of what marx thought it was.
Everyone seems to be looking towards some grand utopia where everything is perfect. What kind of world would that really be?
The truth is that most of the time its adversity that defines us as a species, its only when we are challenged, pushed up against the wall that we truly show our potential. In a world free of problems and evil we would stagnate and decay. How could people like Churchill, Ghandi, Martin Luther King rise to greatness without great causes to fight for.
For me even if the Communism as described by marx could truly come to pass, I would not want to live under it. I see it as taking away my individuality, my drive by removing all the challenges that make life worth living. Communism would fail not because human beings are all essensialy greedy, selfish and evil, but because its utopian system would take away the motivation that drives us as human beings; the struggle to survive, to prosper, and to make things better.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vertigo1 [/i]
[B]Translation: WAH! WAH! WAH! You should all cator to the minority! I don't care that the flags in question have no bearing on the people that committed those attrocities all those yars ago!
That would be like me having a US flag mounted on the back of my truck and driving it all over Baghdad and me complaining that the Iraqi flag is offensive and that it should be removed just becuase I say so.
Now, that being said...if the avatars in question were truely offensive (like the KKK crap, or something deliberately offensive in general) then yes, I would agree with you. However, the avatars you're complaining about are harmless and aren't hurting anyone. You are making a big deal out of nothing. Give it a rest and move on already! [/B][/QUOTE]
after reading that.....I think Konrad made a valid statment about the way people are pusuaded.....
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Vertigo1 [/i]
[B]Communism failed for one specific reason. Greed. Leaders just didn't want to give up the power they had over the others, and it eventually turned into a corrupt bastard child of itself. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah... well it certainly has taken its toll on democracy too... ;)
:rolleyes:
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Konrad [/i]
[B]I don't know where you're getting your line of thinking from. Honestly, I can't figure out half of what you were trying to write there - especially the second paragraph. I wish you would take a step back, cool down, and read every post again carefully with an open mind.
My point all along has been that in my opinion I don't think they are helpfull to their cause, rather they are deliberately 'in your face.'
I can tell it comes down to a fundamental difference in perspective on life, you can be happy in a society where everyone has thick skin, I'll be happy hoping people can learn to be considerate in thier freedoms and come up with smarter ways to educate others about their values.
(I'm trust the response will not simply be a bunch of insults related to what you think my level of intelligence is.) [/B][/QUOTE]
Fine. From what I gather, you're pissed off because a couple of people have avatars of the "communist flag". So what. Big frelling deal. They could have the frelling french flag (and you all know how much I hate the french) and I wouldn't care. Its not affecting me, its not affecting you. Its just a stupid avatar.
So here you come in banner flying saying that they should be removed because they offend YOU. From what I've seen, not alot of people are complaining about the avatars in question. What's the big deal here? You don't like them? Fine. Don't look at them. Hell, if you're in Mozilla, right-click on them and hit "block all images from this server" and you'll never see them again.
If you had a legitimate gripe, then yeah. I'd be behind you 100%, but something as petty as this? Get real. There are bigger things than this man. Move on already.
Simmonds, please dont take this too far. I find you posts interesting and you raise a lot of good points, but time comes when to let things cool down. Give others time to post, so this becomes a discussion and not a rant. People listen more to you when you listen to them.
Comments
[B]You're complaining over a few avatars that have no representation whatsoever on those people that commited those attrocities? Dude, you're pathetic. Grow some skin for crying out loud! Shit, I'm sick of all the fucking whiners springing up all over the net.
Because of a couple of whiners on the [url=http://www.descentbb.net/]DBB[/url], we lost our sigs. All because one person had "JFC" in his signature. :rolleyes: I will not see that happen here because someone doesn't like a couple of things so they bawl their eyes out like a little baby. I got news for you buddy. In the real world, things aren't all fluffy like you see on Pleastantville or Happy Days. I will not see this place turn into a PC fanboy zone so suck it up Konrad. Its a big bad world out there so you're just going to have to get over it and move on. [/B][/QUOTE]
I never complained about anything,I simply pointed out that most people will see symbols such as the hammer and sickel as a representation of one of the most oppressive governments in human history. Its their right to express whatever views or opinions they want, just as it is my right to oppose those views or in this case, symbols as i see fit. I believe Konrad expressed a similar view.
I am not a PC cop, and I oppose censorship, or keeping ones mouth shut because it might offend someone. However if someone shows a political view that is controversial, that person must be prepared to weather an assortment of criticism, debate, and opposition.
Frankly I'd rather not grow a thick skin; I'd rather live in a society where people show some respect and consideration. As A2597 showed me, unless the person is totally closed minded you are more likely to bring about change in thought by writing something that is understanding, careful, considered, and logical rather than in your face and upsetting like Vertigo1's comments or unnecessary flag waving.
This was never about communal or communist systems and whether they are valid or not. (I believe they are an ideal on a local level, and have worked well in the past; just never on a national level.) My original commentary was about the display of a banner that was of a nation that for most of its history was ruled by tyrants who killed - regardless of what number you want to believe. I stand by the comment that if you truly want to encourage your cause you should take a lesson from A2597's style of persuasion - it helped soften my feelings - though I would still rather not see that banner.
[B]On another note:
If you beleve in the Uptopia on earth in startrek...
It should be Noted that is a Communisum [/B][/QUOTE]
That's either a severe insult to Star Trek, or a severe insult to Communism -- both of which suck.
[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by JackN [/i]
[B]I noticed it weeks ago... I was just ignoring it.
;)
Now, if you want to see something REALLY offensive, start using the European Union flag of Blue with 12 Yellow stars, and watch how many people start whining...
:D [/B][/QUOTE]
Damn right I would start whining if anyone used the EU flag as avatar!
[B]From first contact: "Picard: We do not have money in the future" [/B][/QUOTE]
nah, but material certain resources are rationed, everything else is capable of being manufactured instantly!
Why the hell would you need money if the basic goods are all freely availble, and the bigger stuff all controlled by the 'state'?
So my idea is, rather than using a symbol of a [i]dead and failed tyrannical nation[/i], why not use a less nationalistic symbol, like a pink hammer and sickle on a pastel blue background. I'm sorry, but I can't think of anything else that represents communism. It isn't my bag.
[B]If the U.S. became a dictatorial regime... [/B][/QUOTE]
Whadda ya mean [b][i]IF[/i][/b]?
:D
Throughout history there have been symbols that have been corrupted by their true meanings.
The hammer and scicle for one, the swastika for another.
Did you know that there are even churches that have swastikas carved into the stones they are built with? Did you also know that the original swastika has it's "arms" running exactly paralell and perpendicular to the ground and that the Nazi swastika is a perversion in the truest sence.
But it's not the only one. Take the pentagram for example. That is, a 5 pointed star surrounded by a circle. Originaly a symbol of strength, protection and the like, the Catholic church later twisted it into it's satanic meaning.
Some see the hammer and sicle as a sign of "the people", Some see it as a sign of an oppressive and brutal government. Some see the swastika as a symble of hope and good luck. Others see only the millions of innocents butchered by the nazi's. Some see the pentagram as an ancient symbol for protection and strength, others see only satanism. Yet to others, these 3 things mean nothing.
point is.. just because you interpret something to mean the negative, doesn't neccesarily mean that is what the user of that something means.
It's two most common I listed above but I also wanted to add that it seems (from various searches via google) that in current wiccan beliefs, the pentagram represents that religion much as the crusifix does christianity. For their purposes the pentagram represents the elements (in their beliefs) of earth, air, fire, water and spirit, bound by the circle of life, death and rebirth. (Hence the 5 pointed star set in a circle.) Granted, due to the symbols...age... it has been interpreted many different ways. I'm just listing some of the more common ones.
+ The World is Destained to a Communist Society
The world is has gone and is going thru these four states
Fundamentalism(World Has gone thru this State)
Capitalism(World is in this State)
Socialism(World is Moving into this state, at this time)
Communism
And to the people who say Communism Will not work..... I remeber people once said that Democracy would not work..... And look what we have now
And Communism would work very well when Combined with Democracy..
NOTE: Democracy and Communism are very simular things
[B]I was trying to take A2597's comments to heart - then Vertigo1 and AnlaShok reminded me that it's about the fact that someone is using those images not to covey an ideal in a reasonable manner but rather to be in your face.
Frankly I'd rather not grow a thick skin; I'd rather live in a society where people show some respect and consideration. As A2597 showed me, unless the person is totally closed minded you are more likely to bring about change in thought by writing something that is understanding, careful, considered, and logical rather than in your face and upsetting like Vertigo1's comments or unnecessary flag waving.
This was never about communal or communist systems and whether they are valid or not. (I believe they are an ideal on a local level, and have worked well in the past; just never on a national level.) My original commentary was about the display of a banner that was of a nation that for most of its history was ruled by tyrants who killed - regardless of what number you want to believe. I stand by the comment that if you truly want to encourage your cause you should take a lesson from A2597's style of persuasion - it helped soften my feelings - though I would still rather not see that banner. [/B][/QUOTE]
Translation: WAH! WAH! WAH! You should all cator to the minority! I don't care that the flags in question have no bearing on the people that committed those attrocities all those yars ago!
That would be like me having a US flag mounted on the back of my truck and driving it all over Baghdad and me complaining that the Iraqi flag is offensive and that it should be removed just becuase I say so.
Now, that being said...if the avatars in question were truely offensive (like the KKK crap, or something deliberately offensive in general) then yes, I would agree with you. However, the avatars you're complaining about are harmless and aren't hurting anyone. You are making a big deal out of nothing. Give it a rest and move on already!
I see all of you communists backed off of your claims that Lenin was great.
[b]More importantly, firstones has NEVER been about political beliefs. It is a corruption of the multinational/multireligious/multibelief community that we have here.[/b] When debates come up, debate. But this place has never been one to wave your flag- any flag, no matter which one. We need to fix this. Perhaps just remove the whole avatar thing completely. I never really cared for the idea, period.
See, communism is a great idea. Unfortunately, it just won't work.
[B]Translation: WAH! WAH! WAH! You should all cator to the minority! I don't care that the flags in question have no bearing on the people that committed those attrocities all those yars ago!
That would be like me having a US flag mounted on the back of my truck and driving it all over Baghdad and me complaining that the Iraqi flag is offensive and that it should be removed just becuase I say so.[/B][/QUOTE]
I don't know where you're getting your line of thinking from. Honestly, I can't figure out half of what you were trying to write there - especially the second paragraph. I wish you would take a step back, cool down, and read every post again carefully with an open mind.
My point all along has been that in my opinion I don't think they are helpfull to their cause, rather they are deliberately 'in your face.'
I can tell it comes down to a fundamental difference in perspective on life, you can be happy in a society where everyone has thick skin, I'll be happy hoping people can learn to be considerate in thier freedoms and come up with smarter ways to educate others about their values.
(I'm trust the response will not simply be a bunch of insults related to what you think my level of intelligence is.)
[B]Communism and democracy are both very good political systems until you add one thing: people. [/B][/QUOTE]
Did you say that last post on Communism and democracy???
[B]T
And to the people who say Communism Will not work..... I remeber people once said that Democracy would not work..... And look what we have now
And Communism would work very well when Combined with Democracy..
NOTE: Democracy and Communism are very simular things [/B][/QUOTE]
Actualy democray and communism are not terribly similar, and The arguments about democracy are not working, democracies eventualy decay and return to being despotic regiems, Plato was right.
Communism or at least the marxian version of it ends up in a essentialy anarchistic utopia where people have developed some universal abstract shared super morality and the need for a government has disappeared. I believe in human nautre, it exists and is fundamentaly corrupt, this is why all societies at their core have the same damn problems.
Frankly humanity isnt capable of what marx thought it was.
Everyone seems to be looking towards some grand utopia where everything is perfect. What kind of world would that really be?
The truth is that most of the time its adversity that defines us as a species, its only when we are challenged, pushed up against the wall that we truly show our potential. In a world free of problems and evil we would stagnate and decay. How could people like Churchill, Ghandi, Martin Luther King rise to greatness without great causes to fight for.
For me even if the Communism as described by marx could truly come to pass, I would not want to live under it. I see it as taking away my individuality, my drive by removing all the challenges that make life worth living. Communism would fail not because human beings are all essensialy greedy, selfish and evil, but because its utopian system would take away the motivation that drives us as human beings; the struggle to survive, to prosper, and to make things better.
[B]Translation: WAH! WAH! WAH! You should all cator to the minority! I don't care that the flags in question have no bearing on the people that committed those attrocities all those yars ago!
That would be like me having a US flag mounted on the back of my truck and driving it all over Baghdad and me complaining that the Iraqi flag is offensive and that it should be removed just becuase I say so.
Now, that being said...if the avatars in question were truely offensive (like the KKK crap, or something deliberately offensive in general) then yes, I would agree with you. However, the avatars you're complaining about are harmless and aren't hurting anyone. You are making a big deal out of nothing. Give it a rest and move on already! [/B][/QUOTE]
after reading that.....I think Konrad made a valid statment about the way people are pusuaded.....
[B]Communism failed for one specific reason. Greed. Leaders just didn't want to give up the power they had over the others, and it eventually turned into a corrupt bastard child of itself. [/B][/QUOTE]
Yeah... well it certainly has taken its toll on democracy too... ;)
:rolleyes:
[B]Yeah... well it certainly has taken its toll on democracy too... ;)
:rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]
Can't argue with that. ;) Greed and power are the two things that always corrupt.
[B]I don't know where you're getting your line of thinking from. Honestly, I can't figure out half of what you were trying to write there - especially the second paragraph. I wish you would take a step back, cool down, and read every post again carefully with an open mind.
My point all along has been that in my opinion I don't think they are helpfull to their cause, rather they are deliberately 'in your face.'
I can tell it comes down to a fundamental difference in perspective on life, you can be happy in a society where everyone has thick skin, I'll be happy hoping people can learn to be considerate in thier freedoms and come up with smarter ways to educate others about their values.
(I'm trust the response will not simply be a bunch of insults related to what you think my level of intelligence is.) [/B][/QUOTE]
Fine. From what I gather, you're pissed off because a couple of people have avatars of the "communist flag". So what. Big frelling deal. They could have the frelling french flag (and you all know how much I hate the french) and I wouldn't care. Its not affecting me, its not affecting you. Its just a stupid avatar.
So here you come in banner flying saying that they should be removed because they offend YOU. From what I've seen, not alot of people are complaining about the avatars in question. What's the big deal here? You don't like them? Fine. Don't look at them. Hell, if you're in Mozilla, right-click on them and hit "block all images from this server" and you'll never see them again.
If you had a legitimate gripe, then yeah. I'd be behind you 100%, but something as petty as this? Get real. There are bigger things than this man. Move on already.
[B]Yeah... well it certainly has taken its toll on democracy too... ;)
:rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]
True- but I am hoping that I can fix this (*going on my one man crusade*)
Obey the Fist!
So f**k it
Like bush mite do some day, LOL
Becuase assholes Take it to far.