The Cursie Missals will teach them not to mess with America! They will be insulted into the stone age!!!
[quote]What about comprimising principles? It was clear the U.S. was going to win so why use such a desperate measure? Moreover, couldn't the industrial complexes of these cities been "strategically bombed"? I mean, was it absolutely necessary to vaporize EVERY industrial complex, including that of food and ammenities)? How 'bout the residential zoning that made up most of these two cities. Did Japan's respective 'Joe', Jane', and little 'Jimmy' need to be blown into another continuum[/quote]
I believe the intent at the time was to save lives in the long term. There is no way of proving if this were to have really helped, as we can't observe those parallel universes, but I most certainly believe the bombs would have.
Again, the big problem with this whole incident is as Rick said. It was a hate driven terror attack. While this country might bomb the living daylights out of civilians in some situations, we do so for openly wartime reasons, or so I believe.
From what I've heard on CNN this war will be very hard. Cruise missiles and bombs won't be as effective in Afghanistan just ask the Russians. The experts reckon it is the hardest place on earth to fight and will have to resort more on ground troops.The trouble with this war is there is no clearly defined target as this terrorist organisation is spread out over many countries. Bin Laden is at the moment the main target/suspect but taking him out won't solve the terrorist issue and most probably cause many religious extremists to go on the side of Bin Laden.The immediate future doesn't look too bright at the moment..
Yes, but like I said earlier: in a war of ideology, what the f*ck are you fighting for if you throw away cherished principles? The U.S. committed a war crime at Hiroshima another at Nagasaki another at Dresden another at Frankfurt... Where the f*ck is America saving lives in the long run? The only lives saved I see is its own. Fair enough, but don't come 'round telling me "we, as Americans, must maintain our principles and take the moral high ground" 'cause that would be assuming such is intrinsic to America. And even though it is not, as it stands, most Americans believe their nation can do and has done no wrong - or very little if any.
------------------
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[quote]Originally posted by Marc:
[b]Actually, what Ben Franklin said (and I agree with) is:
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.
[/b][/quote]
I couldn't agree more, Marc. How people can run around waving flags and singing national anthems about freedom in one moment, and then be agreeing to hand over more and more of those same freedoms they supposedly cherish in the next moment - it really saddens me.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Cursie missiles are the worst invention ever! The effect on people of a missile crashing into the ground in front of them while screaming profanities is huge and felt for generations after. They should be a very last resort!
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[quote]Originally posted by Faylorn:
[b]Yes, but like I said earlier: in a war of ideology, what the f*ck are you fighting for if you throw away cherished principles? The U.S. committed a war crime at Hiroshima another at Nagasaki another at Dresden another at Frankfurt... Where the f*ck is America saving lives in the long run? The only lives saved I see is its own. Fair enough, but don't come 'round telling me "we, as Americans, must maintain our principles and take the moral high ground" 'cause that would be assuming such is intrinsic to America. And even though it is not, as it stands, most Americans believe their nation can do and has done no wrong - or very little if any.
[/b][/quote]
Your do know about the fire bombings over Tokeo, with the napalm and the kerosine and the burning made all the more effective by Japan's paper houses? More people died in one month of those then in both of those cities, and there would have been alot more if not for the surreneder. And you would be shocked at what you can do when people are activly trying to kill you and your countreymen.
I too must add my voice to those who fear the backlash of these events more than the events themselves.
In times of crisis or when faced with new destabilizing technology, the call is always heard to "control" or "temporarly revoke" basic freedoms in order to "help" the quest for "justice" and to "find those responsible". Unfortunately, these freedoms, once weakened or removed, seldom return. The justifications of "for safety reasons" or "for security reasons" and invoked and discussion ends. "You want our children to be safe, don't you?"
[i][b]I want my daughters to be safe, but more important to me is that they be free.[/b][/i]
Strong encription, anonymous identity and connectivity, unlicensed content (i.e. websites / news groups / forums), and other big-brother defying activities are seen as "threats" or "problems" to be "dealt with". The fact that no real connection can be made to terrorist or other criminal activity is ignored; and the crisis becomes a convenient reason for every "do gooder" to grind their favorite axe.
The revocation of civil liberties, personal freedoms, privacy, self defense, and self determination only give the terrorists what they want. They must be resisted within the framework of the current system in order to preserve it. There is no other way to prevail.
I was watching the first season episode last night where Delen discusses the "terrible power" that is unleashed when her different castes agree on actions to be taken. It was ominously appropriate considering the global response to this outrage.
I hope that our so-called "leaders" are up to the challenge which all of us in the world who believe in peace and freedom must face.
I also want to add my voice of thanks as an American to all of our international brothers and sisters who have offered support and condolences. To see so many of the angers, problems, and mistakes of the last century put behind us brings tears to my eyes and gives even this old synic a bit of hope. I sincerely hope that my nation and her leaders will rise to the level of honor you have given us.
I also hope that we can all see that these criminals do not represent the voice of Islam or the Arab peoples. To my Islamic brothers and sisters: please try to forgive those of us who cannot or will not understand difference. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/redface.gif[/img] They represent no more of a majority of Americans that the terrorists do of Islam.
We must stand together. We must stand free. Divided we will fall.
-- john
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
And fall we will, the way things are going at the moment. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/frown.gif[/img]
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
I (of course) agree with Marc. Perhaps it comes from that tenacious New England spirit I grew up with, but our freedoms are fundimental. My family has fought in every war this nation bore from the Revolution through Korea (my Father served before Vietnam escalated under Johnson). I guess, in some ways, that may make me feel stronger about not wanting to give up rights that so many people died for, including those who perished last week.
They, and those before them, died for the rights in these words from [i]The Declaration of Independence[/i]:
[quote][i]"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."[/i][/quote]
The wisdom of our founding fathers amazes me at times. You have to look no further than the lines quoted above to realize that while they might not have known what trials were to come for our nation, they knew what rights were, fundimentally, the most important, and continue to be to this day. While I may abhore how some people take advantage of this freedom, I will die for their right to express it. No, America isn't perfect, but it does grow and learn from it's experiences, especially the painful ones.
Civil rights took a long time to come about--over 175 years, but it came. And while we may struggle with race relations, there is no call out there saying that one man is better than another because of the color of his skin.
Our test today is to see if we learned anything from McCarthyism and the Japanese Internment camps of the 40s. I have high hopes that we did, but only time will tell.
I also hope that we learned this week that people, do indeed, kill people, not guns. these men wanted to kill, and they used paint scrapers, box cutters, and airplanes to kill law abiding citizens of our nation. A person who wants to kill will kill. We have to understand that. Only by changing our mindset can we truly address the issue of violence of man upon man--it's a human issue, not a legislative one. And our founding fathers knew that too.
America's strength comes from our diversity; and an understanding that the sum of our parts is greater than the individuals. The greatest thing we can show the world is what we have shown them this week, that people of all belief systems here can live together, and in the face of adversity stand together as a people united against those who would bring chaos and hate to our shores.
-Rick
[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 09-18-2001).]
It's okay, this is necessary "for safety reasons". You care about the safety of children, don't you? These measures are only temporary. It's for the good of everyone. We all have to make little sacrifices for the greater good. Trust the corps. The constitution doesn't (expressly) forbid this. If you resist, you must be hiding something. You don't really need that privacy anyway. This won't be used to prosecute petty crime, automatically issue tickets (the computer is never wrong), or maximize the state's revenue or collection of fines. The information we gather will remain private. The records will be destroyed... eventually. The innocent don't have anything to worry about. Face recognition and smart-id card technology will not be used to track your movements, associations, buying habbits, or social/political memberships. The personal information collected will not be distributed to anyone outside the government, our allies or our designated third-party administrative partner corporations, agencies, and organizations. Medical information will not be collected about you nor will it be sold or otherwise made available to the insurance mega-corps. The back-door keys to your encripted personal and financial data will be perfectly protected at all times and you will not be held liable for our systems shortcomings or errors. You will not be denied medical treatment based upon a financial analysis of your future tax-earning or commercial purchasing potential. You do not need to be able to protect yourself, we will probably punish those responsible if you or your loved ones are harmed. You can trust us, it's required by law.
Are they out of their f***ing minds? Has everyone on the goddamn Hill lost it? Jesus f***ing Christ!
I can see the point of implementing tougher standards for visas (for [i]all[/i] applicants), but this sh*t is absolutely ridiculous! WTF is next? Concentration camps for Muslims? Forget about George W., folks: we should be worrying about what [i]Congress[/i] will do next! "F*** the goddamn Constitution! We'll do whatever the hell we want!" Grrrr... [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/cwm/cwm/sd3.gif[/img]
I think I'm gonna be [i]very[/i] sick...
(/[i]uber[/i]-rant)
Rick: Social Security "IDs" are one thing; this, on the other hand... this is far, far worse... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/frown.gif[/img]
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Welcome to the Big Brother state. Time to make the most of your local politician, people. If it happens in America, it won't be long before it spreads to the rest of the world.
Just out of curiosity, what kind of driver's liscense do you have over there? We have a photo liscense here so that people can't just borrow someone else's liscense. They are required to be able to get into bars, clubs, etc to prove that you are 18 (the drinking age here). But apart from that and needing it whenever you drive, they arn't used.
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[quote]Originally posted by Rick:
[b]My God--that reminds me of what Nazi Germany did to the Jews.
Someone get me the TP, someone just defocated on the Constitution.[/b][/quote]
It's definitely not THAT bad. After all, the article says that ALL citizens and non-citizens would be required to carry them; not just one group of citizens.
Here's what we have in the states:
You get a drivers license with a photo (same reasons; no borrowing, etc.). Back in the days of yore (cough) it was laminated and trivial to "modify" if you were patient. (remember, the drinking age here is 21, but many, including myself [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/redface.gif[/img] , had fairly easy access by the time we were freshmen in highschool. I don't condone drinking; I am pretty sure that my memory is mediocre or poor because of my heavy "partying" in HS and undergrad). Next came the licenses with the big "under age" borders, different colored photo backgrounds, etc.
Finally, we got to where we are now; a credit-card-like one-piece thing with laser imprinting and watermarks connecting the photo to the license to the text/data (which are now printed into the plastic rather than "glued on" between layers) It also has a magnetic strip and 2D barcode pattern on the back. You would need a lab to modify these things. (We all know that such labs exist, but most highschoolers don't have access to them...)
DL's are used all over the place. Everything from checking in at the airport, to the bank, to getting into bars, sometimes when using a credit card, when applying for jobs, looking at apartments, etc. Pretty much every time you need to sign for something that legally of financially matters, you are usually asked for your DL. (but they will accept any state sanctioned photo i.d.)
We also have the previously mentioned "social security cards" which have our social security (tax i.d.) number. These numbers were originally created for tax purposes only, and my ancient original card still says on the back "not to be used for identification". Well, that has changed, and the SS# is used many, many places as a national i.d. number (which it was explicitly stated it would not be used for when signed into law).
Many of the US states use your SS# as your DL# unless you specifically request otherwise (and, as I found out, may take them 3 tries to actually get them to do). Many people in the US (including myself) are sensitive about our SS# being "shared" because it is one of the few things needed to steal someone's i.d. or have wages garnished by the court.
If you can't or don't want to drive, you can also get a "state photo i.d." which is identical to the DL for i.d. purposes, without the driving privelege. The DL's also have extra endorsements (corrected vision, organ donor, motorcycle qualified, etc.).
Of course, we also have passports, and those are accepted everywhere as an i.d. Some states also require a "firearms owner i.d. card" in order to own or purchase firearms or ammunition, but I have never seen that one used or accepted for any other purpose.
My concealed weapons permit is another i.d. that I have, but it has no photo or anything, and requires photo verification with another i.d., so it is pretty useless by itself (for i.d. purposes). Many, but not all states have them, and they are issued by the state, not federal govt. so it is only good in other states when they have a "recipicol agreement" with yours.
None of that stuff was in any way a "a secret", and anyone could look it up on the 'net. Thus my openness in discussing it.
I hope that wasn't too boring for everyone; it is a bit off topic [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/shyshad.gif[/img] , but I already wrote it so I am submitting it anyway. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/tongue.gif[/img]
samuelk: I respectfully disagree. Just because something is uniformly applied doesn't make it a good idea. The potential for abuse is just as high.
Be seeing you --
-- john
[This message has been edited by John Walker (edited 09-19-2001).]
I'll see your National ID card and raise you a suspension of habeas corpus
[url="http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/terrorism/nation/0919wrap.html"]http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/terrorism/nation/0919wrap.html[/url]
If I may go off on a tenuously related tangent, I commend the following reports to your attention. Looking at the wider scope, is it possible that we're cowing our people?
[url="http://www.atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2001-09-12/cover.html"]http://www.atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2001-09-12/cover.html[/url]
[url="http://www.atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2001-09-19/news_feature.html"]http://www.atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2001-09-19/news_feature.html[/url]
Just a thought about the whole civil liberty question...
[This message has been edited by TheKnave (edited 09-19-2001).]
[This message has been edited by TheKnave (edited 09-19-2001).]
Go to the following links, look up your representatives, and e-mail them NOW. Nip this ID card at the bud before it grows out of control.
[url="http://clerkweb.house.gov/mbrcmtee/mbrcmtee.htm"]http://clerkweb.house.gov/mbrcmtee/mbrcmtee.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.senate.gov/"]http://www.senate.gov/[/url]
[i]"I have done no crime, so why should [b]I[/b] have to surrender my rights?"[/i]
CC: john McCain, Trent Lott, and Gephart as well--use that line, tell them that this ID card thing is (barely) a step above tatooing numbers on everyone, or forcing people to wear their identities and affiliations as clothing. [i]America is about Freedom[/i],we shouldn't be so eager to give these things up, or the terrorists WILL win.
First the ID cards...then Habius Corpus...then the guns...
Remember, this tragedy could have been avoided if:
1. The airlines and the FAA actually DID THEIR JOB and immediately alerted the FBI that one or more foreign nationals from "agressive stance" regions had bought insanely expensive (read $14,000.00) one-way tickets at the last minute on a plane. In this case, *5* per plane. For the life of me, I don't understand why that didn't set off a few dozen red lights. (Yes, the terrorists paid 14K for the tickets. This was found out through the use of the Freedom of Information act used by a very bright reporter on the 60-minutes staff).
2. The "rent-a-cops" at the airport actually did the job they were hired to do. I don't neccessarily blame the people DOING the job because they get less training and pay than your average Starbucks employee (saw this on a 60 Minutes II Report on Monday). I DO blame the FAA and airlines for taking our safety that lightly, though, and if American and United go bankrupt for screwing up so horribly, good riddance. The carry-on restrictions should have been as tight as they are now TO BEGIN WITH. They let me carry a Swisschamp Swiss Army Knife on my belt on my last 2 domestic trips, for God's sake.
The Airlines are a private industry. They can deny tickets to anyone they want to if someone doesn't want to adhere to their rules of conduct and transit. They are fully within their rights to say "Want to carry your razor on? Tough. It's not allowed" and pass you a refund. It's only descrimination if they limit searches or apply rules to one segment of society in the course of doing business. Noone questions Disney for having height requirements for rollercoaster rides, and this is no different.
Boil all you want, Rick (unless it's sending your blood pressure through the roof). You're right on all counts, especially about the airlines, FAA and pi$$-poor or non-exsistent security. In fact, I'd go even further:
1. Why didn't the flight schools that trained these terrorists alert the FBI? Since when is it normal for foreign nationals to request instruction that [i]does not include landings?[/i] If these schools hadn't been so eager to accept money from these people without question, we might not even be talking about this. (Yeah, yeah, I know that "their paperwork appeared in order" and all that happy horsesh*t; however, [i]some[/i] of the requests should have raised questions. Then again, I'm a really suspicious - and cynical - S.O.B. compared with most people. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] )
2. We Americans (and our government) have taken the threat of terrorism in all its forms far too lightly for far too long. Perhaps it's the belief that "these things always happen in the Middle East and 'Third World' countries and not the U.S." or it's the refusal to believe that terrible things can happen in our own neigborhood (school shootings, for example); we've left the doors wide open for terrorists at any rate. Even the first attack on the WTC and the bombings in Oklahoma City and at the Summer Olympics in Atlanta weren't enough to rouse us from our complacency; we figured that a few simple precautions would prevent a repeat of those types of attacks (which is probably true). Yet little was done to improve airport (and commercial aircraft) security above existing levels. We've had the capability to prevent the hijackings that took place last Tuesday for quite some time; unfortunately, sheer complacency, greed, and a host of other reasons (including privacy and civil liberties issues) have kept us from fully using that capability.
Most (if not all) Americans will hold Osama bin Laden solely responsible for Tuesday's brutal attacks; in reality, a good many Americans are equally responsible. Some may not deserve punishment; others should be put on trial and shot for their negligence, greed, and sheer stupidity.
Comments
[quote]What about comprimising principles? It was clear the U.S. was going to win so why use such a desperate measure? Moreover, couldn't the industrial complexes of these cities been "strategically bombed"? I mean, was it absolutely necessary to vaporize EVERY industrial complex, including that of food and ammenities)? How 'bout the residential zoning that made up most of these two cities. Did Japan's respective 'Joe', Jane', and little 'Jimmy' need to be blown into another continuum[/quote]
I believe the intent at the time was to save lives in the long term. There is no way of proving if this were to have really helped, as we can't observe those parallel universes, but I most certainly believe the bombs would have.
Again, the big problem with this whole incident is as Rick said. It was a hate driven terror attack. While this country might bomb the living daylights out of civilians in some situations, we do so for openly wartime reasons, or so I believe.
------------------
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[b]Actually, what Ben Franklin said (and I agree with) is:
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759.
[/b][/quote]
I couldn't agree more, Marc. How people can run around waving flags and singing national anthems about freedom in one moment, and then be agreeing to hand over more and more of those same freedoms they supposedly cherish in the next moment - it really saddens me.
- Dan
LMAO.
I needed that.
He said "Cursie Missals"...
which aren't a very accurate delivery system...
You can fling an insult but it will likely hit the wrong person or miss everyone altogether...
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[b]Yes, but like I said earlier: in a war of ideology, what the f*ck are you fighting for if you throw away cherished principles? The U.S. committed a war crime at Hiroshima another at Nagasaki another at Dresden another at Frankfurt... Where the f*ck is America saving lives in the long run? The only lives saved I see is its own. Fair enough, but don't come 'round telling me "we, as Americans, must maintain our principles and take the moral high ground" 'cause that would be assuming such is intrinsic to America. And even though it is not, as it stands, most Americans believe their nation can do and has done no wrong - or very little if any.
[/b][/quote]
Your do know about the fire bombings over Tokeo, with the napalm and the kerosine and the burning made all the more effective by Japan's paper houses? More people died in one month of those then in both of those cities, and there would have been alot more if not for the surreneder. And you would be shocked at what you can do when people are activly trying to kill you and your countreymen.
In times of crisis or when faced with new destabilizing technology, the call is always heard to "control" or "temporarly revoke" basic freedoms in order to "help" the quest for "justice" and to "find those responsible". Unfortunately, these freedoms, once weakened or removed, seldom return. The justifications of "for safety reasons" or "for security reasons" and invoked and discussion ends. "You want our children to be safe, don't you?"
[i][b]I want my daughters to be safe, but more important to me is that they be free.[/b][/i]
Strong encription, anonymous identity and connectivity, unlicensed content (i.e. websites / news groups / forums), and other big-brother defying activities are seen as "threats" or "problems" to be "dealt with". The fact that no real connection can be made to terrorist or other criminal activity is ignored; and the crisis becomes a convenient reason for every "do gooder" to grind their favorite axe.
The revocation of civil liberties, personal freedoms, privacy, self defense, and self determination only give the terrorists what they want. They must be resisted within the framework of the current system in order to preserve it. There is no other way to prevail.
I was watching the first season episode last night where Delen discusses the "terrible power" that is unleashed when her different castes agree on actions to be taken. It was ominously appropriate considering the global response to this outrage.
I hope that our so-called "leaders" are up to the challenge which all of us in the world who believe in peace and freedom must face.
I also want to add my voice of thanks as an American to all of our international brothers and sisters who have offered support and condolences. To see so many of the angers, problems, and mistakes of the last century put behind us brings tears to my eyes and gives even this old synic a bit of hope. I sincerely hope that my nation and her leaders will rise to the level of honor you have given us.
I also hope that we can all see that these criminals do not represent the voice of Islam or the Arab peoples. To my Islamic brothers and sisters: please try to forgive those of us who cannot or will not understand difference. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/redface.gif[/img] They represent no more of a majority of Americans that the terrorists do of Islam.
We must stand together. We must stand free. Divided we will fall.
-- john
------------------
[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
They, and those before them, died for the rights in these words from [i]The Declaration of Independence[/i]:
[quote][i]"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed..."[/i][/quote]
The wisdom of our founding fathers amazes me at times. You have to look no further than the lines quoted above to realize that while they might not have known what trials were to come for our nation, they knew what rights were, fundimentally, the most important, and continue to be to this day. While I may abhore how some people take advantage of this freedom, I will die for their right to express it. No, America isn't perfect, but it does grow and learn from it's experiences, especially the painful ones.
Civil rights took a long time to come about--over 175 years, but it came. And while we may struggle with race relations, there is no call out there saying that one man is better than another because of the color of his skin.
Our test today is to see if we learned anything from McCarthyism and the Japanese Internment camps of the 40s. I have high hopes that we did, but only time will tell.
I also hope that we learned this week that people, do indeed, kill people, not guns. these men wanted to kill, and they used paint scrapers, box cutters, and airplanes to kill law abiding citizens of our nation. A person who wants to kill will kill. We have to understand that. Only by changing our mindset can we truly address the issue of violence of man upon man--it's a human issue, not a legislative one. And our founding fathers knew that too.
America's strength comes from our diversity; and an understanding that the sum of our parts is greater than the individuals. The greatest thing we can show the world is what we have shown them this week, that people of all belief systems here can live together, and in the face of adversity stand together as a people united against those who would bring chaos and hate to our shores.
-Rick
[This message has been edited by Rick (edited 09-18-2001).]
( http://arstechnica.com/wankerdesk/01q3/war/index.html )
[This message has been edited by John Walker (edited 09-18-2001).]
[url="http://www.msnbc.com/news/630118.asp"]http://www.msnbc.com/news/630118.asp[/url]
I don't think I need to explain the danger inherent in this idea. But successfully terrorized people will let this happen.
Someone get me the TP, someone just defocated on the Constitution.
It's okay, this is necessary "for safety reasons". You care about the safety of children, don't you? These measures are only temporary. It's for the good of everyone. We all have to make little sacrifices for the greater good. Trust the corps. The constitution doesn't (expressly) forbid this. If you resist, you must be hiding something. You don't really need that privacy anyway. This won't be used to prosecute petty crime, automatically issue tickets (the computer is never wrong), or maximize the state's revenue or collection of fines. The information we gather will remain private. The records will be destroyed... eventually. The innocent don't have anything to worry about. Face recognition and smart-id card technology will not be used to track your movements, associations, buying habbits, or social/political memberships. The personal information collected will not be distributed to anyone outside the government, our allies or our designated third-party administrative partner corporations, agencies, and organizations. Medical information will not be collected about you nor will it be sold or otherwise made available to the insurance mega-corps. The back-door keys to your encripted personal and financial data will be perfectly protected at all times and you will not be held liable for our systems shortcomings or errors. You will not be denied medical treatment based upon a financial analysis of your future tax-earning or commercial purchasing potential. You do not need to be able to protect yourself, we will probably punish those responsible if you or your loved ones are harmed. You can trust us, it's required by law.
Nuts.
Are they out of their f***ing minds? Has everyone on the goddamn Hill lost it? Jesus f***ing Christ!
I can see the point of implementing tougher standards for visas (for [i]all[/i] applicants), but this sh*t is absolutely ridiculous! WTF is next? Concentration camps for Muslims? Forget about George W., folks: we should be worrying about what [i]Congress[/i] will do next! "F*** the goddamn Constitution! We'll do whatever the hell we want!" Grrrr... [img]http://www.freakygamers.com/smilies/s/cwm/cwm/sd3.gif[/img]
I think I'm gonna be [i]very[/i] sick...
(/[i]uber[/i]-rant)
Rick: Social Security "IDs" are one thing; this, on the other hand... this is far, far worse... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/frown.gif[/img]
Just out of curiosity, what kind of driver's liscense do you have over there? We have a photo liscense here so that people can't just borrow someone else's liscense. They are required to be able to get into bars, clubs, etc to prove that you are 18 (the drinking age here). But apart from that and needing it whenever you drive, they arn't used.
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[b][url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Required reading[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
[b]My God--that reminds me of what Nazi Germany did to the Jews.
Someone get me the TP, someone just defocated on the Constitution.[/b][/quote]
It's definitely not THAT bad. After all, the article says that ALL citizens and non-citizens would be required to carry them; not just one group of citizens.
Here's what we have in the states:
You get a drivers license with a photo (same reasons; no borrowing, etc.). Back in the days of yore (cough) it was laminated and trivial to "modify" if you were patient. (remember, the drinking age here is 21, but many, including myself [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/redface.gif[/img] , had fairly easy access by the time we were freshmen in highschool. I don't condone drinking; I am pretty sure that my memory is mediocre or poor because of my heavy "partying" in HS and undergrad). Next came the licenses with the big "under age" borders, different colored photo backgrounds, etc.
Finally, we got to where we are now; a credit-card-like one-piece thing with laser imprinting and watermarks connecting the photo to the license to the text/data (which are now printed into the plastic rather than "glued on" between layers) It also has a magnetic strip and 2D barcode pattern on the back. You would need a lab to modify these things. (We all know that such labs exist, but most highschoolers don't have access to them...)
DL's are used all over the place. Everything from checking in at the airport, to the bank, to getting into bars, sometimes when using a credit card, when applying for jobs, looking at apartments, etc. Pretty much every time you need to sign for something that legally of financially matters, you are usually asked for your DL. (but they will accept any state sanctioned photo i.d.)
We also have the previously mentioned "social security cards" which have our social security (tax i.d.) number. These numbers were originally created for tax purposes only, and my ancient original card still says on the back "not to be used for identification". Well, that has changed, and the SS# is used many, many places as a national i.d. number (which it was explicitly stated it would not be used for when signed into law).
Many of the US states use your SS# as your DL# unless you specifically request otherwise (and, as I found out, may take them 3 tries to actually get them to do). Many people in the US (including myself) are sensitive about our SS# being "shared" because it is one of the few things needed to steal someone's i.d. or have wages garnished by the court.
If you can't or don't want to drive, you can also get a "state photo i.d." which is identical to the DL for i.d. purposes, without the driving privelege. The DL's also have extra endorsements (corrected vision, organ donor, motorcycle qualified, etc.).
Of course, we also have passports, and those are accepted everywhere as an i.d. Some states also require a "firearms owner i.d. card" in order to own or purchase firearms or ammunition, but I have never seen that one used or accepted for any other purpose.
My concealed weapons permit is another i.d. that I have, but it has no photo or anything, and requires photo verification with another i.d., so it is pretty useless by itself (for i.d. purposes). Many, but not all states have them, and they are issued by the state, not federal govt. so it is only good in other states when they have a "recipicol agreement" with yours.
None of that stuff was in any way a "a secret", and anyone could look it up on the 'net. Thus my openness in discussing it.
I hope that wasn't too boring for everyone; it is a bit off topic [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/shyshad.gif[/img] , but I already wrote it so I am submitting it anyway. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/tongue.gif[/img]
samuelk: I respectfully disagree. Just because something is uniformly applied doesn't make it a good idea. The potential for abuse is just as high.
Be seeing you --
-- john
[This message has been edited by John Walker (edited 09-19-2001).]
I'll see your National ID card and raise you a suspension of habeas corpus
[url="http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/terrorism/nation/0919wrap.html"]http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/terrorism/nation/0919wrap.html[/url]
If I may go off on a tenuously related tangent, I commend the following reports to your attention. Looking at the wider scope, is it possible that we're cowing our people?
[url="http://www.atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2001-09-12/cover.html"]http://www.atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2001-09-12/cover.html[/url]
[url="http://www.atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2001-09-19/news_feature.html"]http://www.atlanta.creativeloafing.com/2001-09-19/news_feature.html[/url]
Just a thought about the whole civil liberty question...
[This message has been edited by TheKnave (edited 09-19-2001).]
[This message has been edited by TheKnave (edited 09-19-2001).]
[url="http://clerkweb.house.gov/mbrcmtee/mbrcmtee.htm"]http://clerkweb.house.gov/mbrcmtee/mbrcmtee.htm[/url]
[url="http://www.senate.gov/"]http://www.senate.gov/[/url]
[i]"I have done no crime, so why should [b]I[/b] have to surrender my rights?"[/i]
CC: john McCain, Trent Lott, and Gephart as well--use that line, tell them that this ID card thing is (barely) a step above tatooing numbers on everyone, or forcing people to wear their identities and affiliations as clothing. [i]America is about Freedom[/i],we shouldn't be so eager to give these things up, or the terrorists WILL win.
First the ID cards...then Habius Corpus...then the guns...
Remember, this tragedy could have been avoided if:
1. The airlines and the FAA actually DID THEIR JOB and immediately alerted the FBI that one or more foreign nationals from "agressive stance" regions had bought insanely expensive (read $14,000.00) one-way tickets at the last minute on a plane. In this case, *5* per plane. For the life of me, I don't understand why that didn't set off a few dozen red lights. (Yes, the terrorists paid 14K for the tickets. This was found out through the use of the Freedom of Information act used by a very bright reporter on the 60-minutes staff).
2. The "rent-a-cops" at the airport actually did the job they were hired to do. I don't neccessarily blame the people DOING the job because they get less training and pay than your average Starbucks employee (saw this on a 60 Minutes II Report on Monday). I DO blame the FAA and airlines for taking our safety that lightly, though, and if American and United go bankrupt for screwing up so horribly, good riddance. The carry-on restrictions should have been as tight as they are now TO BEGIN WITH. They let me carry a Swisschamp Swiss Army Knife on my belt on my last 2 domestic trips, for God's sake.
The Airlines are a private industry. They can deny tickets to anyone they want to if someone doesn't want to adhere to their rules of conduct and transit. They are fully within their rights to say "Want to carry your razor on? Tough. It's not allowed" and pass you a refund. It's only descrimination if they limit searches or apply rules to one segment of society in the course of doing business. Noone questions Disney for having height requirements for rollercoaster rides, and this is no different.
Ok, boiling over. Better stop for now.
1. Why didn't the flight schools that trained these terrorists alert the FBI? Since when is it normal for foreign nationals to request instruction that [i]does not include landings?[/i] If these schools hadn't been so eager to accept money from these people without question, we might not even be talking about this. (Yeah, yeah, I know that "their paperwork appeared in order" and all that happy horsesh*t; however, [i]some[/i] of the requests should have raised questions. Then again, I'm a really suspicious - and cynical - S.O.B. compared with most people. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] )
2. We Americans (and our government) have taken the threat of terrorism in all its forms far too lightly for far too long. Perhaps it's the belief that "these things always happen in the Middle East and 'Third World' countries and not the U.S." or it's the refusal to believe that terrible things can happen in our own neigborhood (school shootings, for example); we've left the doors wide open for terrorists at any rate. Even the first attack on the WTC and the bombings in Oklahoma City and at the Summer Olympics in Atlanta weren't enough to rouse us from our complacency; we figured that a few simple precautions would prevent a repeat of those types of attacks (which is probably true). Yet little was done to improve airport (and commercial aircraft) security above existing levels. We've had the capability to prevent the hijackings that took place last Tuesday for quite some time; unfortunately, sheer complacency, greed, and a host of other reasons (including privacy and civil liberties issues) have kept us from fully using that capability.
Most (if not all) Americans will hold Osama bin Laden solely responsible for Tuesday's brutal attacks; in reality, a good many Americans are equally responsible. Some may not deserve punishment; others should be put on trial and shot for their negligence, greed, and sheer stupidity.