[quote]Originally posted by Keyan:
[b]I re-watched the interview last night with the NASA reps, he said later that "when I said there was in increase, I mis-spoke, the sensors just went to null"[/b][/quote]
Aaa... well that's new to me. Thanks for the information.
I'm still in shock... and I've been sick since yesterday morning...
Not again! I thought...
7 more to glory, and a whole nation in sadness yet again.
There are many coincidences that I won't go into here and speculate about. Don't throw out the terrorist card yet, but don't exhagerate it either.
A warning about the debri that comes down. For God's sake don't touch it!
I had thought that MEH had been replaced by now! That shit is more dangerous than everyone is reporting. Hyrdazine is lethal in very small amounts. A drop on the skin can send you into convulsions and death, and it doesn't take days! Chemical burning is the least of your problems.
They REALLY have to stress the enviromental threat more than they are doing...
As for the space program, there will be a general grounding of the fleet. There has to be, but there will be at least a mission or two to consider because of the Space Station, remember the people on board?
I should hope that the inquiry this time won't cripple the program for 2 1/2 years...
[quote]Originally posted by JackN:
[b]There are many coincidences that I won't go into here and speculate about. Don't throw out the terrorist card yet, but don't exhagerate it either.[/b][/quote]
I'm glad someone else is being open minded and level headed about it.
[quote]Originally posted by JackN:
[b]They REALLY have to stress the environmental threat more than they are doing...[/b][/quote]
If the environmental lobby knew what was/has been going on do you think there would be a space program? I'm still worried about some of those old Soviet satellites up there that can survive re-entry. -shiver-
To some of the others on the board: let's not let this get political - I rather enjoyed the last month of quiet calm communication on the board - do some research on when the big cuts to NASA happened before you drag out your tasteless attempts to bash the current administration. So much hate in you people in a time that should be for quiet reflection and sadness. Let's let the investigation happen before fingers are pointed. ("Ass-u-me" or "Those of you who think you know everything are annoying those of us who do.")
Reaperman: Those images left me in awe.
Kenyan: You get my level headed award.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 02-02-2003).]
There would be widespread panic if they made a HUGE deal about it....and the odds of enough of it surviving reentry are pretty slim, since given the sounds people heard it sounds like it definatly exploded. Also...volitile stuff like that generally has a high rate of evaporation, so at this point any that might have survived is probably gone..unless it's stuck in something somewhere, which is why they are telling people not to touch whatever they find.
I'm not speculating as to the cause, I'm just trying to clarify any mis-information that's flying around..part of the problem is that "offical sources" at this point can give mis-information too...there is supposed to be another news conference any time now, maybe they will be able to state the list of hard facts now that the data has been initally collated.
[This message has been edited by Keyan (edited 02-02-2003).]
[quote]There are many coincidences that I won't go into here and speculate about. Don't throw out the terrorist card yet, but don't exhagerate it either.[/quote]
I can't throw out the terrorist card because I never picked it up to begin with.
There's NO WAY this has anything to do with terrorism. And if I'm wrong, I'll eat my hat (which is convenient for me, since I'm not wearing one [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] ).
[quote]Originally posted by Keyan:
[b]
That and one day my friends THE SUN WILL DIE. We need to learn how to leave.[/b][/quote]
" Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe and Lao-Tzu, Einstein, Morobuto, Buddy Holly, Aristophanes .. and all of this .. all of this was for nothing unless we go to the stars." (Infection, season 1, ep. 4)
[quote]Originally posted by samuelk:
[b]I can't throw out the terrorist card because I never picked it up to begin with.
There's NO WAY this has anything to do with terrorism. And if I'm wrong, I'll eat my hat (which is convenient for me, since I'm not wearing one [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] ).[/b][/quote]
Well I really hope you are right Samuel, REALLY!
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possibility. Of course I'm not talking about an in flight interception either. There's a host of scenarios pre-flight, and pre-prep I could imagine.
But, like I said, I'm not going to speculate. Let the inquiry do it's job...
Whatever the outcome, they need to get back up on the horse as soon as possible...
Ok, now at the briefing, they have reported heat sensors has reporting rapid and abnormal heating in the landing gear bay and on a sensor that is just above the left wing on the fuleslage. That plus the shuttle was adjusting the elevator trim to compensate for increased drag on the left side...and he said the trim amounts were outside their level of experince.
ahhhh folks..... perhaps I got things a little backwards in the way I wrote it....
if you build the bitch in orbit, who cares what it weighs, it only ever matters on the way up
unshackle your minds from gravity folks, you of all people should be able to THINK like Spacers...
and who said the crew pod couldnt be re-entry vehicle and crew survival pod on the way up ?
the actual systems used to keep people alive, ie, the environmental systems are not that big or expensive, if we put crew in pods like those, cool, then all we have to do is develop a better lift vehicle
When I said 'unmanned flights' I meant a simple supply run, toilet paper and pencils for the space station etc. Use the station exactly as its name implies, as a station, ship stuff to it... and work from it... do final assembly on sattelites and use a 'Maintenance Fury' to put it into orbit/into a trajectory where it can acheive its own orbit.
We shouldnt do science on the bus....and thats exactly what the shuttle should be. A very expensive and very cool bus...
you also missed the point about shuttles and aerodynamics...
youre right, you have to maintain a very specific angle of attack to the atmosphere or you get cooked...
if the drop pod is a concrete sphere, or even a stubby cylinder, with a single line of division down the middle... who the hell cares what angle it comes in at... you dont need to control it bar setting up the intial angle of decent... after that you have a foot or more of concrete, perhaps with insulative additives to prevent you getting cooked. Then you shed the shell and splash down. Zero sweat.
cast the drop pod shell on the moon.. sling it into orbit , pick it up with the stations mule... attach it to the drop pod... and off you go.
the shells could also be used to ship space made gear down to earth, big crystals , perfect aluminium etc, they should make attempts to commecialise space, even if its gimmick value in the beginning. A space grown crystal pendant for 400 bucks... etc and defray the costs of setting up.
I'm all for super rich tourists to join in....
our biggest fight with space right now is gravity... so... you ignore gravity or put it to work for you...
build shit on the moon...
most of the moons surface is rocks and fine dust, dust is great stuff... you can build rammed earth dwellings in a matter of hours, squirt some resin sealant on it and voila, moonbase. You do not need to bring much in the way of structural materials, you have buckets right there wating for you.
the KISS principile... lateral thinking
on wooden reentry tiles... there are a zillion different types of wood... you assume we have to use super dense hardwood if you think it has to be heavy...
ply can be as light as buggery and I didnt say anything about it not being soaked in resin
and a smoking , perhaps still on fire shuttle on landing ? a dramatic entrance perhaps but is it really going to matter if the shuttle is built to withstand extreme tempretures ? a quick hose with the fire truck and no problems
the ceramic tiles are a favourite with boffins.... blow torch on one side.. you feel nothing on the other... until you drop it and it scatters in pieces across the floor... lots of OOO"s and AAAAAAh's involved and how impressed wouldn't you be if he showed you a block of plywood ??
do the same blowtorch trick with the block of wood and you'd perhaps get the same result... even though the wood is ablative and sacrificed in the process.
and one last little titbit...
~~~~
the American Space Programme and its suppliers spent many months and over a million dollars developing the "Space pen", that writes in zero G.
the Russians used a pencil
~~~~
it aint pretty.. it aint high tech... and it didnt cost a small fortune, but by golly.... it works
[quote]When I said 'unmanned flights' I meant a simple supply run, toilet paper and pencils for the space station etc. Use the station exactly as its name implies, as a station, ship stuff to it... and work from it... do final assembly on sattelites and use a 'Maintenance Fury' to put it into orbit/into a trajectory where it can acheive its own orbit.[/quote]
They do that. The progress cargo ship that launched today from Russia carries supplies for the station, and yes, it's unmanned.
It's a good thing they made a pen too, or else Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin would still be on the moon.
steel is a big nasty heavy material but its damn hard to break...
the Stormovik flew.. and flew well and had an incredible survivability rate, it was made out of steel.. something no-one except the Russians would think og using, heaven forbid if Lockeed or Hawker where to concieve a craft with a steel structure...
but it worked, and worked damned well.
because they threw the 'rule book' out the window
if you want to get specific about shuttle engineering materials, perhaps carbon fibre and titanium are the equivalents to 'steel' in this situation...
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]the American Space Programme and its suppliers spent many months and over a million dollars developing the "Space pen", that writes in zero G.[/b][/quote]
[url="http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.htm"]http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.htm[/url]
I notice you seem to think up quite a lot of ideas, but you never seem to think of the fesability of them. To hear you say it, you could put in aardvark into a very thick wooden box, attach it to a trash can full of elephant dung, light the thing on fire, and expect the poor creature to go all the way into orbit and fall back to earth, splashing down safe and sound in someone's swimming pool.
Yes, Ti would be the replacement for steel. It's strong but light. But really expensive and kind of exotic- it has some really strange properties. But it IS very heat resistant in it's own right.
IIRC, the Venture Star was using more exotic materials than the shuttle did. The shuttle fleet was on a budget too remember. Carbon Fiber as it exists today didn't exist at the time the shuttles were being deigned and built (mid to late 70s).
If you are building a ship that will exist solely in space, why use steel if it will never have to go through reentry? That and steel still has a high weight/mass, and you have to get it up there somehow. The tile has the best weight/heat resistance ratio. If you have been watching the news, it isn't like this tile is a thin sheet. It's a block filled with some kind of insualtion, but it also holds the tile in place...i.e. if you hit it, it might crack, but it isn't going to shatter away. And it's a complete block with another layer on the inside.
Also, didn't earlier space-plane concepts include a woven mesh of titanium and various heat-reflective fibers, which would be attached to the body in thin layer, yet be much more damage resistant than silicate tiles, weigh less, be easier to repair and cheaper to manufacture, and keep the ship cooler.
I'll try and dig something up. If I can't find it, I'll capture my old video tape of it sometime.
By the way, anyone remember the old show "Beyond 2000"?
Back in the day, it used to be rather great, but is just kind of silly right now.
[This message has been edited by Sanfam (edited 02-03-2003).]
That's possible..but remember, a space plane experiences even lower levels of stress and heat than the shuttle does since it just "skips" from point A to point B, they weren't designed to have the duration or altitiude that the shuttle reaches. The entire shuttle is covered in various kinds of tile, i doubt a change could really be made at this point to that basic aspect of the design, although the tiles could be, and have been, improved.
Thought that this might interest you as well: [url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12820-2003Feb1.html"]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12820-2003Feb1.html[/url]
[quote]Originally posted by mambo_morden:
[b]If you look at the URL of that ebay thing it's not on ebay - I looked up the seller and the ebay item number that was on that and it's a bogus one on actual ebay. It wouldn't surprise me though if someone did try it.[/b][/quote]
If you took the time to read the entire post, you'd note that it was an ARCHIVE of the auction.
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[b][url="http://www.savefarscape.com/"]SAVE FARSCAPE![/url][/b]
"Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else! Love to stay! Can't, have to go! Kiss! Kiss! Love! Love! Bye! *kiss*" - G'Kar
shadow boxer: While flying vehicles to and from space, there is still a need for an actual crew onboard just incase something goes wrong. Given what a small budget NASA has....I doubt non-manned flights would be viable for them since it would be even more cost prohibitive than the current manned flights.
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[b][url="http://www.savefarscape.com/"]SAVE FARSCAPE![/url][/b]
"Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else! Love to stay! Can't, have to go! Kiss! Kiss! Love! Love! Bye! *kiss*" - G'Kar
have you ever working with timber ? with steel ? carbon fibre ? concrete even ?
wood works as an ablative heat sheild on chinese re-entry vehicles, its proven engineering.
Have you done any comprehensive studies on the thermal properties of concrete ?
all you've done is further proven my point about a degree of engineering snobbishness coming into play when it comes to building stuff at the top end of the scale, such as aerospace engineering.
it ticks you off that I might suggest that the Chinese might actually have a few good ideas ...that dont require megabucks to utilise.
I also didnt notice you suggesting any alternatives to what I've put forward...
and have you ever done any training in lateral thinking ?
NO IDEA is without merit... more often than not the most ludicrous idea is the one that actually works, or makes the breakthrough in your thinking, that leads you to the best solution.
Feasability is the next step... once the idea is put forward you do your best to prove it doesnt work... and then move on till you find an idea that survives the devils advocate...
try putting something constructive into your critisism... otherwise you will continue to look like a twat.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
~~~
Why couldnt Buzz use a pencil ?? hmmm ??
thats classic linear thinking...
"Oh damn the pen doesnt work... I'll have to make it work..."
not
"Oh damn the pen doesnt work... Is there an alternative I can use to record data ?"
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]Why couldnt Buzz use a pencil ?? hmmm ??[/b][/quote]
Because an independant company had already made a space pen, and it's a bit foolish to ignore things sitting right in front of you that are already made and packaged in a nice box. Which your famously pragmatic Russian friends also used, I might add.
Now, were you to ask, why couldn't Glenn use a pencil, the anwser is even easier. He did.
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]
try putting something constructive into your critisism... otherwise you will continue to look like a twat.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
I find that comment absolutely hilarious coming from you SB.
Apparently the only people who are intelligent or correct are the ones that agree with you...
[This message has been edited by jambo_jimmy (edited 02-03-2003).]
on the contrary my dear Jambo.... I WANT you to shoot down what I have to say... in flames if you wish...
didnt I just say that you put an idea out there.. then let everyone apply their critical minds to it and see if it survives....??
and regardless of the facts about the example I gave you, the ONLY reason I brought up the pen VS pencil case is for the example it sets in terms of thinking. If it turns out its all a myth then cool, glad it is, that still doesnt negate my arguement.
change the pen and pencil for chracoal and a wax pencil if that makes you feel any better, only one will work on glass... you dont have to re-engineer the charcoal to write on glass when you have something that already works. You dont have to prove how big your brain is every time, how gifted you are at making a beautiful complex system when something much simpler will suffice.
heres an example much closer to earth.
Jack the builder works with a hammer and nails putting up houses.
the only thing that will stop him putting up houses is if he breaks his hammer, and if hes as smart as he should be he's use and Estwing and thats extremely unlikely.
Angus the builder works with a nail gun putting up houses. While hes faster and perhaps a little more efficent than Jack....
a busted air hose, a faulty air regulator, a defective part in his nail gun, a pack of bent strip nails, a snapped drive belt on the air compressor, a toasted fuse on the motor, a power failure in the area where hes working,... could all potentially stop him dead in his tracks....
atleast his nailgun isnt going to suddenly burn white hot and explode levelling the block... it isnt a space shuttle.
Keep It Simple Stupid
In an environment as evil and nasty as the interface of space/atmosphere... you dont **** around, you make sure whatever you are doing there is as simple as possible and make your trip through it as fast as possible. The less time you are exposed to it the better.
falling back to earth inside a concrete bunker sounds just dandy to me.. strapped into a super duper crash couch and survival system that I dont have to enter from the rest of the ship inside a split second to survive.
I'm talking about the broader issues of ship design, not the specifics, not the precise mix of concrete required for a re-entry vehicle... I'm asking can you see anything that immediately sticks out that says categorically...
can you explain to me mate.. why the Russians have the Progress ?? unmanned... simple cargo transport
and I think weve had a very graphic example of the futility of having a pilot on a vehicle travelling at Mach25... do you think the 'pilot' could have done anything to prevent what happened to the Colombia ?? By the looks of things, by the time the seriousness of the fault was garnered, it was already too late...
when things go wrong in such conditions theres NOTHING you can do than let your harness go and try kissing your butt goodbye...
1) Dam good pictures - look like photos! I like alot!
Infact I like so much I seek permission to take the images out of the Columbia picture and use it in a presentation. That is unless somebody can find me a very similiar image. That is just the thing that I have been looking for!
You would be fully credited for the image - but I would need a real name, not a callsign.
my e-mail for the reply is
python859@yahoo.com
Thanks!
BTW I am appauled by the Columbia disaster guys! I have been talking about it at Beyond Babylon.
I would like to offer my condolances to America and the famalies of the crew.
I am not trying to be cruel saying that a picture made to cemorate the disaster is what I am after - but that sort of picture is.
I need a shuttle, in orbit - looking good! and the sun and stars - from the top. Either front or rear (that is important) for a presentation on Astro-navigation systems!
It might be proven technology..for a capsule, a one time use vehicle. One that has a HUGE difference in G-loads and duration of reentry. Ablation is only so useful, remember, you are burning the shield off. If I understand ablation properly, the faster you decelerate, the better it will work since it burns off at a fairly constant rate after you reach a certain temperature level. In fact, the apollo capsules used an ablative coating, but their G loads and speeds were MUCH higher than the shuttle, simply because a little capsule can handle much higher loads than the more complex design of the shuttle.
As for using concrete...everyone has seen what happens to a concrete sidewalk after even a year, or a concrete road buckling explosivly in the summer heat, and those are MINOR temperature changes compaired to what would be experinced during reentry. Not to mention that concrete is rock, and therefore very very very heavy, which means you have a TON of momentum to kill somehow during reentry, let alone getting it into space.
[quote]a busted air hose, a faulty air regulator, a defective part in his nail gun, a pack of bent strip nails, a snapped drive belt on the air compressor, a toasted fuse on the motor, a power failure in the area where hes working,... could all potentially stop him dead in his tracks....[/quote]
The flaw in your argument is that you're assuming that the guy with the nail gun can't also have a hammer as backup.
[quote]the ceramic tiles are a favourite with boffins.... blow torch on one side.. you feel nothing on the other... until you drop it and it scatters in pieces across the floor... lots of OOO"s and AAAAAAh's involved and how impressed wouldn't you be if he showed you a block of plywood ??[/quote]
You're missing the part where you turn the tile over so the heated side touches your hand, and it's cool to the touch. Do that with a chucnk of wood and you'll have one severely burnt hand.
Furthermore, a shuttle tile is around an inch and a half thick. A block of wood would have to be a bit thicker to insulate heat from the hand. And even at the same thickness, a block of wood would be many times heavier than the silica/ceramic tile.
[quote]you dissapoint me David....
have you ever working with timber ? with steel ? carbon fibre ? concrete even ?
wood works as an ablative heat sheild on chinese re-entry vehicles, its proven engineering.[/quote]
Wood works for SMALL quick-entry vehicles. The Chinese space craft was the size of the Soyuz escape vehicle or the Apollo capsule, and it entered the atmosphere much quicker than the Shuttle.
The shuttle is too big for a wooden heat shield, and it spends too long in the atmosphere. Wood exposed to high temperatures for that long would char and shatter too easily.
[quote]Have you done any comprehensive studies on the thermal properties of concrete ?[/quote]
I have. And while concrete has good insulating properties, they're nowhere near as good as silica/ceramic tile.
Furthermore, concrete absorbs water very easily, which can cause problems with extreme heat changes like those experience by the shuttle. In space, the concrete could crack when the water freezes. On reentry, the extreme heat would cause the water to vaporise, possiblt breaking the concrete from the resulting vapor pressure.
[quote]all you've done is further proven my point about a degree of engineering snobbishness coming into play when it comes to building stuff at the top end of the scale, such as aerospace engineering.[/quote]
If you think engineering involves always using the most advanced materials, you're being very naive.
[quote]it ticks you off that I might suggest that the Chinese might actually have a few good ideas ...that dont require megabucks to utilise.[/quote]
The point is that you're suggesting things without comparing situations. Wood heat shields work for the Chinese craft because they're SMALL. It's not applicable to the space shuttle.
[quote]I also didnt notice you suggesting any alternatives to what I've put forward...
and have you ever done any training in lateral thinking ?
NO IDEA is without merit... more often than not the most ludicrous idea is the one that actually works, or makes the breakthrough in your thinking, that leads you to the best solution.
Feasability is the next step... once the idea is put forward you do your best to prove it doesnt work... and then move on till you find an idea that survives the devils advocate...
try putting something constructive into your critisism... otherwise you will continue to look like a twat.. [/quote]
What really gets me is that you're assuming NASA just totally bypassed the idea of using simpler materials. NASA has been around for quite a while. They've run tests on materials you probably wouldn't even think of using.
[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 02-03-2003).]
[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 02-03-2003).]
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]you dissapoint me David....
have you ever working with timber ? with steel ? carbon fibre ? concrete even ?
wood works as an ablative heat sheild on chinese re-entry vehicles, its proven engineering.
Have you done any comprehensive studies on the thermal properties of concrete ?[/b][/quote]
Maybe you missed the part where he said it wouldn't be viable because of the added weight. Ohh yeah, you forget that as it flakes off that it mucks up what little aerodynamics the shuttle has to start off with, and could cause them to crash.
See, as it would flake off, it would leave pits. Pits trap air and create friction. At those velocities, that could send the shuttle into an unrecoverable spin.
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[b][url="http://www.savefarscape.com/"]SAVE FARSCAPE![/url][/b]
"Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else! Love to stay! Can't, have to go! Kiss! Kiss! Love! Love! Bye! *kiss*" - G'Kar
Comments
[b]I re-watched the interview last night with the NASA reps, he said later that "when I said there was in increase, I mis-spoke, the sensors just went to null"[/b][/quote]
Aaa... well that's new to me. Thanks for the information.
- PJH
Not again! I thought...
7 more to glory, and a whole nation in sadness yet again.
There are many coincidences that I won't go into here and speculate about. Don't throw out the terrorist card yet, but don't exhagerate it either.
A warning about the debri that comes down. For God's sake don't touch it!
I had thought that MEH had been replaced by now! That shit is more dangerous than everyone is reporting. Hyrdazine is lethal in very small amounts. A drop on the skin can send you into convulsions and death, and it doesn't take days! Chemical burning is the least of your problems.
They REALLY have to stress the enviromental threat more than they are doing...
As for the space program, there will be a general grounding of the fleet. There has to be, but there will be at least a mission or two to consider because of the Space Station, remember the people on board?
I should hope that the inquiry this time won't cripple the program for 2 1/2 years...
Find it, Fix it, and Get on with it...
We owe that to those who just gave their lives...
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/frown.gif[/img]
[This message has been edited by JackN (edited 02-02-2003).]
[b]There are many coincidences that I won't go into here and speculate about. Don't throw out the terrorist card yet, but don't exhagerate it either.[/b][/quote]
I'm glad someone else is being open minded and level headed about it.
[quote]Originally posted by JackN:
[b]They REALLY have to stress the environmental threat more than they are doing...[/b][/quote]
If the environmental lobby knew what was/has been going on do you think there would be a space program? I'm still worried about some of those old Soviet satellites up there that can survive re-entry. -shiver-
To some of the others on the board: let's not let this get political - I rather enjoyed the last month of quiet calm communication on the board - do some research on when the big cuts to NASA happened before you drag out your tasteless attempts to bash the current administration. So much hate in you people in a time that should be for quiet reflection and sadness. Let's let the investigation happen before fingers are pointed. ("Ass-u-me" or "Those of you who think you know everything are annoying those of us who do.")
Reaperman: Those images left me in awe.
Kenyan: You get my level headed award.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 02-02-2003).]
I'm not speculating as to the cause, I'm just trying to clarify any mis-information that's flying around..part of the problem is that "offical sources" at this point can give mis-information too...there is supposed to be another news conference any time now, maybe they will be able to state the list of hard facts now that the data has been initally collated.
[This message has been edited by Keyan (edited 02-02-2003).]
I can't throw out the terrorist card because I never picked it up to begin with.
There's NO WAY this has anything to do with terrorism. And if I'm wrong, I'll eat my hat (which is convenient for me, since I'm not wearing one [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] ).
[b]
That and one day my friends THE SUN WILL DIE. We need to learn how to leave.[/b][/quote]
" Ask ten different scientists about the environment, population control, genetics and you'll get ten different answers, but there's one thing every scientist on the planet agrees on. Whether it happens in a hundred years or a thousand years or a million years, eventually our Sun will grow cold and go out. When that happens, it won't just take us. It'll take Marilyn Monroe and Lao-Tzu, Einstein, Morobuto, Buddy Holly, Aristophanes .. and all of this .. all of this was for nothing unless we go to the stars." (Infection, season 1, ep. 4)
[b]I can't throw out the terrorist card because I never picked it up to begin with.
There's NO WAY this has anything to do with terrorism. And if I'm wrong, I'll eat my hat (which is convenient for me, since I'm not wearing one [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] ).[/b][/quote]
Well I really hope you are right Samuel, REALLY!
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the possibility. Of course I'm not talking about an in flight interception either. There's a host of scenarios pre-flight, and pre-prep I could imagine.
But, like I said, I'm not going to speculate. Let the inquiry do it's job...
Whatever the outcome, they need to get back up on the horse as soon as possible...
if you build the bitch in orbit, who cares what it weighs, it only ever matters on the way up
unshackle your minds from gravity folks, you of all people should be able to THINK like Spacers...
and who said the crew pod couldnt be re-entry vehicle and crew survival pod on the way up ?
the actual systems used to keep people alive, ie, the environmental systems are not that big or expensive, if we put crew in pods like those, cool, then all we have to do is develop a better lift vehicle
When I said 'unmanned flights' I meant a simple supply run, toilet paper and pencils for the space station etc. Use the station exactly as its name implies, as a station, ship stuff to it... and work from it... do final assembly on sattelites and use a 'Maintenance Fury' to put it into orbit/into a trajectory where it can acheive its own orbit.
We shouldnt do science on the bus....and thats exactly what the shuttle should be. A very expensive and very cool bus...
you also missed the point about shuttles and aerodynamics...
youre right, you have to maintain a very specific angle of attack to the atmosphere or you get cooked...
if the drop pod is a concrete sphere, or even a stubby cylinder, with a single line of division down the middle... who the hell cares what angle it comes in at... you dont need to control it bar setting up the intial angle of decent... after that you have a foot or more of concrete, perhaps with insulative additives to prevent you getting cooked. Then you shed the shell and splash down. Zero sweat.
cast the drop pod shell on the moon.. sling it into orbit , pick it up with the stations mule... attach it to the drop pod... and off you go.
the shells could also be used to ship space made gear down to earth, big crystals , perfect aluminium etc, they should make attempts to commecialise space, even if its gimmick value in the beginning. A space grown crystal pendant for 400 bucks... etc and defray the costs of setting up.
I'm all for super rich tourists to join in....
our biggest fight with space right now is gravity... so... you ignore gravity or put it to work for you...
build shit on the moon...
most of the moons surface is rocks and fine dust, dust is great stuff... you can build rammed earth dwellings in a matter of hours, squirt some resin sealant on it and voila, moonbase. You do not need to bring much in the way of structural materials, you have buckets right there wating for you.
the KISS principile... lateral thinking
on wooden reentry tiles... there are a zillion different types of wood... you assume we have to use super dense hardwood if you think it has to be heavy...
ply can be as light as buggery and I didnt say anything about it not being soaked in resin
and a smoking , perhaps still on fire shuttle on landing ? a dramatic entrance perhaps but is it really going to matter if the shuttle is built to withstand extreme tempretures ? a quick hose with the fire truck and no problems
the ceramic tiles are a favourite with boffins.... blow torch on one side.. you feel nothing on the other... until you drop it and it scatters in pieces across the floor... lots of OOO"s and AAAAAAh's involved and how impressed wouldn't you be if he showed you a block of plywood ??
do the same blowtorch trick with the block of wood and you'd perhaps get the same result... even though the wood is ablative and sacrificed in the process.
and one last little titbit...
~~~~
the American Space Programme and its suppliers spent many months and over a million dollars developing the "Space pen", that writes in zero G.
the Russians used a pencil
~~~~
it aint pretty.. it aint high tech... and it didnt cost a small fortune, but by golly.... it works
Keep It Simple Stupid
They do that. The progress cargo ship that launched today from Russia carries supplies for the station, and yes, it's unmanned.
It's a good thing they made a pen too, or else Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin would still be on the moon.
you missed the point again !
steel is a big nasty heavy material but its damn hard to break...
the Stormovik flew.. and flew well and had an incredible survivability rate, it was made out of steel.. something no-one except the Russians would think og using, heaven forbid if Lockeed or Hawker where to concieve a craft with a steel structure...
but it worked, and worked damned well.
because they threw the 'rule book' out the window
if you want to get specific about shuttle engineering materials, perhaps carbon fibre and titanium are the equivalents to 'steel' in this situation...
[b]the American Space Programme and its suppliers spent many months and over a million dollars developing the "Space pen", that writes in zero G.[/b][/quote]
[url="http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.htm"]http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.htm[/url]
I notice you seem to think up quite a lot of ideas, but you never seem to think of the fesability of them. To hear you say it, you could put in aardvark into a very thick wooden box, attach it to a trash can full of elephant dung, light the thing on fire, and expect the poor creature to go all the way into orbit and fall back to earth, splashing down safe and sound in someone's swimming pool.
IIRC, the Venture Star was using more exotic materials than the shuttle did. The shuttle fleet was on a budget too remember. Carbon Fiber as it exists today didn't exist at the time the shuttles were being deigned and built (mid to late 70s).
If you are building a ship that will exist solely in space, why use steel if it will never have to go through reentry? That and steel still has a high weight/mass, and you have to get it up there somehow. The tile has the best weight/heat resistance ratio. If you have been watching the news, it isn't like this tile is a thin sheet. It's a block filled with some kind of insualtion, but it also holds the tile in place...i.e. if you hit it, it might crack, but it isn't going to shatter away. And it's a complete block with another layer on the inside.
I'll try and dig something up. If I can't find it, I'll capture my old video tape of it sometime.
By the way, anyone remember the old show "Beyond 2000"?
Back in the day, it used to be rather great, but is just kind of silly right now.
[This message has been edited by Sanfam (edited 02-03-2003).]
- PJH
[b]If you look at the URL of that ebay thing it's not on ebay - I looked up the seller and the ebay item number that was on that and it's a bogus one on actual ebay. It wouldn't surprise me though if someone did try it.[/b][/quote]
If you took the time to read the entire post, you'd note that it was an ARCHIVE of the auction.
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[b][url="http://www.savefarscape.com/"]SAVE FARSCAPE![/url][/b]
"Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else! Love to stay! Can't, have to go! Kiss! Kiss! Love! Love! Bye! *kiss*" - G'Kar
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[b][url="http://www.savefarscape.com/"]SAVE FARSCAPE![/url][/b]
"Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else! Love to stay! Can't, have to go! Kiss! Kiss! Love! Love! Bye! *kiss*" - G'Kar
have you ever working with timber ? with steel ? carbon fibre ? concrete even ?
wood works as an ablative heat sheild on chinese re-entry vehicles, its proven engineering.
Have you done any comprehensive studies on the thermal properties of concrete ?
all you've done is further proven my point about a degree of engineering snobbishness coming into play when it comes to building stuff at the top end of the scale, such as aerospace engineering.
it ticks you off that I might suggest that the Chinese might actually have a few good ideas ...that dont require megabucks to utilise.
I also didnt notice you suggesting any alternatives to what I've put forward...
and have you ever done any training in lateral thinking ?
NO IDEA is without merit... more often than not the most ludicrous idea is the one that actually works, or makes the breakthrough in your thinking, that leads you to the best solution.
Feasability is the next step... once the idea is put forward you do your best to prove it doesnt work... and then move on till you find an idea that survives the devils advocate...
try putting something constructive into your critisism... otherwise you will continue to look like a twat.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
~~~
Why couldnt Buzz use a pencil ?? hmmm ??
thats classic linear thinking...
"Oh damn the pen doesnt work... I'll have to make it work..."
not
"Oh damn the pen doesnt work... Is there an alternative I can use to record data ?"
[b]Why couldnt Buzz use a pencil ?? hmmm ??[/b][/quote]
Because an independant company had already made a space pen, and it's a bit foolish to ignore things sitting right in front of you that are already made and packaged in a nice box. Which your famously pragmatic Russian friends also used, I might add.
Now, were you to ask, why couldn't Glenn use a pencil, the anwser is even easier. He did.
[b]
try putting something constructive into your critisism... otherwise you will continue to look like a twat.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
I find that comment absolutely hilarious coming from you SB.
Apparently the only people who are intelligent or correct are the ones that agree with you...
[This message has been edited by jambo_jimmy (edited 02-03-2003).]
the Russians used a pencil
[/quote]
That's a myth. NASA didn't spend any money on developing that pen.
didnt I just say that you put an idea out there.. then let everyone apply their critical minds to it and see if it survives....??
and regardless of the facts about the example I gave you, the ONLY reason I brought up the pen VS pencil case is for the example it sets in terms of thinking. If it turns out its all a myth then cool, glad it is, that still doesnt negate my arguement.
change the pen and pencil for chracoal and a wax pencil if that makes you feel any better, only one will work on glass... you dont have to re-engineer the charcoal to write on glass when you have something that already works. You dont have to prove how big your brain is every time, how gifted you are at making a beautiful complex system when something much simpler will suffice.
heres an example much closer to earth.
Jack the builder works with a hammer and nails putting up houses.
the only thing that will stop him putting up houses is if he breaks his hammer, and if hes as smart as he should be he's use and Estwing and thats extremely unlikely.
Angus the builder works with a nail gun putting up houses. While hes faster and perhaps a little more efficent than Jack....
a busted air hose, a faulty air regulator, a defective part in his nail gun, a pack of bent strip nails, a snapped drive belt on the air compressor, a toasted fuse on the motor, a power failure in the area where hes working,... could all potentially stop him dead in his tracks....
atleast his nailgun isnt going to suddenly burn white hot and explode levelling the block... it isnt a space shuttle.
Keep It Simple Stupid
In an environment as evil and nasty as the interface of space/atmosphere... you dont **** around, you make sure whatever you are doing there is as simple as possible and make your trip through it as fast as possible. The less time you are exposed to it the better.
falling back to earth inside a concrete bunker sounds just dandy to me.. strapped into a super duper crash couch and survival system that I dont have to enter from the rest of the ship inside a split second to survive.
I'm talking about the broader issues of ship design, not the specifics, not the precise mix of concrete required for a re-entry vehicle... I'm asking can you see anything that immediately sticks out that says categorically...
"A concrete spaceship is a stupid idea....?"
and I think weve had a very graphic example of the futility of having a pilot on a vehicle travelling at Mach25... do you think the 'pilot' could have done anything to prevent what happened to the Colombia ?? By the looks of things, by the time the seriousness of the fault was garnered, it was already too late...
when things go wrong in such conditions theres NOTHING you can do than let your harness go and try kissing your butt goodbye...
take their souls to stars,
for it is by these dreams,
they are compeled to ride
chariots of fire into the skies.
Jake
[This message has been edited by Freejack (edited 02-03-2003).]
1) Dam good pictures - look like photos! I like alot!
Infact I like so much I seek permission to take the images out of the Columbia picture and use it in a presentation. That is unless somebody can find me a very similiar image. That is just the thing that I have been looking for!
You would be fully credited for the image - but I would need a real name, not a callsign.
my e-mail for the reply is
python859@yahoo.com
Thanks!
BTW I am appauled by the Columbia disaster guys! I have been talking about it at Beyond Babylon.
I would like to offer my condolances to America and the famalies of the crew.
I am not trying to be cruel saying that a picture made to cemorate the disaster is what I am after - but that sort of picture is.
I need a shuttle, in orbit - looking good! and the sun and stars - from the top. Either front or rear (that is important) for a presentation on Astro-navigation systems!
Thanks and once again, my sympathies America.
As for using concrete...everyone has seen what happens to a concrete sidewalk after even a year, or a concrete road buckling explosivly in the summer heat, and those are MINOR temperature changes compaired to what would be experinced during reentry. Not to mention that concrete is rock, and therefore very very very heavy, which means you have a TON of momentum to kill somehow during reentry, let alone getting it into space.
The flaw in your argument is that you're assuming that the guy with the nail gun can't also have a hammer as backup.
You're missing the part where you turn the tile over so the heated side touches your hand, and it's cool to the touch. Do that with a chucnk of wood and you'll have one severely burnt hand.
Furthermore, a shuttle tile is around an inch and a half thick. A block of wood would have to be a bit thicker to insulate heat from the hand. And even at the same thickness, a block of wood would be many times heavier than the silica/ceramic tile.
[quote]you dissapoint me David....
have you ever working with timber ? with steel ? carbon fibre ? concrete even ?
wood works as an ablative heat sheild on chinese re-entry vehicles, its proven engineering.[/quote]
Wood works for SMALL quick-entry vehicles. The Chinese space craft was the size of the Soyuz escape vehicle or the Apollo capsule, and it entered the atmosphere much quicker than the Shuttle.
The shuttle is too big for a wooden heat shield, and it spends too long in the atmosphere. Wood exposed to high temperatures for that long would char and shatter too easily.
[quote]Have you done any comprehensive studies on the thermal properties of concrete ?[/quote]
I have. And while concrete has good insulating properties, they're nowhere near as good as silica/ceramic tile.
Furthermore, concrete absorbs water very easily, which can cause problems with extreme heat changes like those experience by the shuttle. In space, the concrete could crack when the water freezes. On reentry, the extreme heat would cause the water to vaporise, possiblt breaking the concrete from the resulting vapor pressure.
[quote]all you've done is further proven my point about a degree of engineering snobbishness coming into play when it comes to building stuff at the top end of the scale, such as aerospace engineering.[/quote]
If you think engineering involves always using the most advanced materials, you're being very naive.
[quote]it ticks you off that I might suggest that the Chinese might actually have a few good ideas ...that dont require megabucks to utilise.[/quote]
The point is that you're suggesting things without comparing situations. Wood heat shields work for the Chinese craft because they're SMALL. It's not applicable to the space shuttle.
[quote]I also didnt notice you suggesting any alternatives to what I've put forward...
and have you ever done any training in lateral thinking ?
NO IDEA is without merit... more often than not the most ludicrous idea is the one that actually works, or makes the breakthrough in your thinking, that leads you to the best solution.
Feasability is the next step... once the idea is put forward you do your best to prove it doesnt work... and then move on till you find an idea that survives the devils advocate...
try putting something constructive into your critisism... otherwise you will continue to look like a twat.. [/quote]
What really gets me is that you're assuming NASA just totally bypassed the idea of using simpler materials. NASA has been around for quite a while. They've run tests on materials you probably wouldn't even think of using.
[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 02-03-2003).]
[This message has been edited by samuelk (edited 02-03-2003).]
[b]you dissapoint me David....
have you ever working with timber ? with steel ? carbon fibre ? concrete even ?
wood works as an ablative heat sheild on chinese re-entry vehicles, its proven engineering.
Have you done any comprehensive studies on the thermal properties of concrete ?[/b][/quote]
Maybe you missed the part where he said it wouldn't be viable because of the added weight. Ohh yeah, you forget that as it flakes off that it mucks up what little aerodynamics the shuttle has to start off with, and could cause them to crash.
See, as it would flake off, it would leave pits. Pits trap air and create friction. At those velocities, that could send the shuttle into an unrecoverable spin.
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[b][url="http://www.savefarscape.com/"]SAVE FARSCAPE![/url][/b]
"Isn't the universe an amazing place? I wouldn't live anywhere else! Love to stay! Can't, have to go! Kiss! Kiss! Love! Love! Bye! *kiss*" - G'Kar