Just posting my thoughts here. I have been in the military (both drafted and stayed on afterwards), Ive learned to use a variety of weapons, and Ive seen what they can do.
We had a lot of education about psychology and guns (since being a groupchief, Im responsble for my men and I have to take the gun if my men are acting irrationally).
The knowledge I took with me is simply this: Guns kill. People have feelings that are irrational, and sometimes overpowering. Do the maths yourself.
------------------
Talk is silver, but violence is gold.
This is a test post, because I can't seem to be able to post my lengthy post in this thread for some reason. I was able to post in other threads after trying here though and those other posts in here of course.
[quote]Originally posted by rhett:
[b]PJH, it doesnt even sound like you live in the US? If not, then back the hell off with trying to take my damn rights away. If you do, then party on, just lets try not to get to violent here... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
I'm not backing anywhere. And I'm not trying to take away anything either. I'm just stating my opinion and I have a right to do so. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
There's also no need to start "fighting", or anything like that, but I might give back the same way whatever is given to me if I see it appropriate. If noone "attacks me", insults me, goes into personalities, or anything like that, then I won't either, but if things go too far, then I remind you that the powers that be here will close, or/and delete this thread and the discussion is then over. It's up to you. I'm personally trying not to fall at an immature level. I hope noone is stupid enough to go overboard by trying to make me to do that.
[quote][b]But seriously, you have not listened (or read) what I have posted.[/b][/quote]
Yes I have and very carefully too.
[quote][b]Sure, killing with a knife is harder, but if I want to kill a woman or weak man with a knife is anything going to stop me (besides luck?).[/b][/quote]
Many things. Legs (escaping), locking up behind a door, yelling help and getting help from others nearby, using different kind of non-lethal but strong and affecting sprays, using a device which gives an electric shock and paralyzes the attacker etc. etc. There are many many ways and certainly even many more ways I don't even know about myself. Find out if you're interested. I'm sure there's lots of information available on the net too.
[quote][b]Garoteting is where you take a thin sharp thing (such as piano wire) and come up behind someone and choke them to death or cut there windpipe with it.[/b][/quote]
Thanks for the explanation. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[quote][b]Give me one good way for a suprised five foot woman to defend herself from an attacker with a knife. Traditional self defense will not help for long against a large guy (or even girl).[/b][/quote]
I don't think nothing would help in that kind of situation except a good luck.
[quote][b]What do my personal opinions about gun ownership (or anyones opinion) reveal what kind of person I really am?[/b][/quote]
Many things you say (and do) reveal parts of your personality. Some more, some less. Basically opinions always reveal something. If you want a lecture go to school.
[quote][b]PJH, you have not presented one logical argument here without becoming insulting and degrading.[/b][/quote]
Eh? I have to say that now you've complitely lost me. I haven't become insulting or degrading at any point when writing my arguments.
I only gave a little bit back to Konrad who [b]first[/b] made a personal comments about me. I also said after that (because of that very reason), that I would stop discussing about this topic any further. In other words, I didn't want to continue the discussion because it had evolved to a point where personal comments were being made.
Besides in fact Rhett, that comment of yours is a personal remark against me making it a second one already in this thread.
And what about those "then back the hell off" comments then where you're even swearing? That sounds very insulted mans talk to me.
Now I don't really mean this as an insult, but I'd like to remind you of a famous saying about watching in the mirror.
- PJH
[This message has been edited by PJH (edited 11-28-2002).]
That seemed to work. Are there somekind of lenght limitations for messages, or other limitations I might have exceeded?
[b]Piece #2.[/b]
[quote][b]As I said before, even if I hated guns I would not take away guns. Why? Because once you say it is ok to change the Bill of Rights, what goes next? How about freedom of religion? After all, by following a different religion than I do "revealed to me what kind of person you really are. Also the mere enthusiasm how you defend something like [religion] already tells a lot about you and your values. Thanks very much."
Or how about freedom of speech? If we say it is ok to change one, how easy will it be to change another, and another, until there are none left?[/b][/quote]
What about if there was in the Bill Of Rights a right to kill anyone you want just like that without getting punished? If you would take that away then what goes next?
You are essentially telling here, that because something is in the Bill Of Rights it's unchangeable and can't be wrong. You're giving out impression, that it's above everything else including common sense and moral.
Doesn't sound very good to me.
[quote][b]PJH, dont start getting all insulting just because we dont agree... As the philosopher Rodney King once said, "Cant we all just get along?" [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
Again I don't understand, what you are talking about. Like I pointed out above, you actually made a remarks about me. I never insulted anybody. Again I only gave a little back to Konrad like I already mentioned. And of course
I was naturally a bit emotional when writing that after just reading a not very kind personal comment about me as you may understand. I even thought about writing an additional post to tell him that I really didn't want to insult him and was only giving him back to show that I'm not going to tolerate going into personalities. Well maybe a little bit of frustration was there too and being tired I admit, but I wouldn't have started to post anything like that only because of that. It only added to the said reason why I posted it. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
And if I emhasize something, or/and use as an example something "to a degree emotional comment" to make my point better out, it's not meant as an insult.
But remember though, that we are all humans (well except Jack, Randy, John and Biggles [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/tongue.gif[/img] ) and we have emotions, so if we feel that we are insulted we usually give back too. And I would actually be quite worried if we didn't.
Yes, we can get along, I hope. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
- PJH
[This message has been edited by PJH (edited 11-28-2002).]
[quote]Originally posted by Messiah:
[b]Just posting my thoughts here. I have been in the military (both drafted and stayed on afterwards), Ive learned to use a variety of weapons, and Ive seen what they can do.
We had a lot of education about psychology and guns (since being a groupchief, Im responsble for my men and I have to take the gun if my men are acting irrationally).
The knowledge I took with me is simply this: Guns kill. People have feelings that are irrational, and sometimes overpowering. Do the maths yourself.
[/b][/quote]
Finally someone who doesn't disagree with me and actually makes sense. Can't agree more with that statement. I had actually forgotten to bring out that people have irrational feelings, which is a very good point and gives much more weight to what I've been saying about.
I was already wondering that am I the only one representing "this side of view" who's got the courage to say what they think about this in addition of Shadow Boxer. Or is it lazyness? Or do people think that it's useless? Actually though I think partly like that myself too and I often have no time to even read all posts. Sometimes I simply have no interest. All those "useless" "GREEN!"-posts get piles of replies in very short time though.
[quote]Originally posted by Argone:
[b]Hey no matter what legislation they put out their man has been killing his fellow man since time began!
Yes I do believe in some sort and let me make this perfectly clear! SOME SORT! of gun control!
I don't think people need automatic weapon or main battle tanks!
But I do believe, weather right or wrong, it is my right as an American citizen, as long as I am not a convicted felon, to own a rifle or hand gun!
I keep them locked up and the ammo locked in a separate place and no one but me and my wife have the key.
I enjoy skeet shooting, Deer hunting and small game. But I only hunt what I intend on eating and do not think of it as a sport!
I figure it would only be a sport if they could shoot back! I do it to kee my skills sharp!
[/b][/quote]
That's ok by me Argone and I'm glad to hear that you keep them locked up and ammo in a separate place. It's much more safe that way.
Like I said, I think guns for hunting and sports are ok. There may be other uses and reasons to own a gun too that I can accept as well, but I haven't thought about them much and didn't want to start listing them all here.
I just don't like that people are acquiring guns for self defense in a modern civilized western world. That simply doesn't make any sense to me at all (except in some special circumstances like I mentioned earlier). It sounds more like a wild west era thing.
[quote][b]I don't think people need automatic weapon or main battle tanks![/b][/quote]
Well hopefully not those at least! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Yes, I basically agree with all those 3 parts, but the opinions of the content of that 3rd part differ, which is why we were debating in the first place. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
My apologies PJH, if I sounded mean or insulting. I just found some of the things you said to be degrading "Have a happy life in your screwed up dreamworld kid. And remember, don't shoot other people with your gun, it's not a toy."
But anyways, that is not the point of this discussion. Let me give this one more go (now that it is not midnight)
I am an avid hunter. That is part of the reason I own a gun and my father owns guns. My father has applied for a CWP (concealed weapons permit) and has been given one (after a background check he paid for). Why did he get one? Becuase he drives quite a lot between here and the Las Vegas area (about a 3 hour drive) with my younger sister and I. Lets say we break down. What is going to stop a pscho with ANY weapon (gun, knife, baseball bat) from trying to hurt our family? True, my dad and I are big guys, but my sister isn't.
"That's ok by me Argone and I'm glad to hear that you keep them locked up and ammo in a separate place. It's much more safe that way. "
What you don't seem to understand is that those who use guns properly and know to fear them do this. My father has a big safe that is locked all the time. The only guns that are out are: 1) a shotgun and 2) a handgun (the one he has his CWP for). This is of course not including when we go hunting.
Do you know that in order to hunt you must pay for a day long class on firearms safety? Then you must go to a place to by a hunting permit. PJH, you have said you dont mind hunting, this is just for those who dont think we should even allow hunting. We eat what we kill and that is the bottom line with real hunters.
[quote]I was already wondering that am I the only one representing "this side of view" who's got the courage to say what they think about this in addition of Shadow Boxer. Or is it lazyness? Or do people think that it's useless? Actually though I think partly like that myself too and I often have no time to even read all posts. Sometimes I simply have no interest. All those "useless" "GREEN!"-posts get piles of replies in very short time though.
- PJH
[/quote]
This is a fairly useless topic, because the chance of anyone having a logical argument that would sway me against gun rights is minute. This is all an exercise in futility. At the end of this you will most likely still think exactly the same and I will most likely still think the same.
[quote] posted 11-28-2002 05:44 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That seemed to work. Are there somekind of lenght limitations for messages, or other limitations I might have exceeded?
Piece #2.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said before, even if I hated guns I would not take away guns. Why? Because once you say it is ok to change the Bill of Rights, what goes next? How about freedom of religion? After all, by following a different religion than I do "revealed to me what kind of person you really are. Also the mere enthusiasm how you defend something like [religion] already tells a lot about you and your values. Thanks very much."
Or how about freedom of speech? If we say it is ok to change one, how easy will it be to change another, and another, until there are none left?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What about if there was in the Bill Of Rights a right to kill anyone you want just like that without getting punished? If you would take that away then what goes next?
You are essentially telling here, that because something is in the Bill Of Rights it's unchangeable and can't be wrong. You're giving out impression, that it's above everything else including common sense and moral.
Doesn't sound very good to me.
[/quote]
The right to bear arms does not mean the right to kill. There is no where where you can go and shoot someone and get away with it scot free and clean. The Bill of Rights is not a license to kill, as you are implying. It simply provides you the right that if you want a weapon, it is free for you to have. What was the first thing knives were used for? Killing. What about bats? Killing.
[quote]Many things you say (and do) reveal parts of your personality. Some more, some less. Basically opinions always reveal something. If you want a lecture go to school.[/quote]
I agree. But just because I am a gun owner and advocate of gun rights doesnt mean that you should think lower of me. How would you feel if I said for example, "Well, you are not a Christian so that reveals a lot about you and your character..."
[quote]I don't think nothing would help in that kind of situation except a good luck.[/quote]
Or a gun.
[quote]Yes, exactly, they are tools, tools meant to do evil things. Killing and wounding living beings. Destroying things. Excluding those I already mentioned at least twice already, hunting and sports.[/quote]
I am going to try one more time to use this logic. What else is a knife for? Its used for killing. Sure there are exceptions (such as for cutting food) just as there are for guns. However, should we ban all knifes that are not table knives. They kill just as well.
[quote]And like already said about spoons, computers don't kill either, guns do in hand of criminals.[/quote]
Just as knives do, or baseball bats, or bags of rolled quarters. The key phrase here is [b]"in the hand of criminals"[/b] I am not a criminal so why should my guns be taken away. Some people abuse asprin and kill themselves, should we take away asprin? Some people abuse knives, so should we take them away? Some people abuse liquer and drive drunk, so should we take the cars away? You will say that this is different, but for the most part it isnt that much different. Again, I apologize if you feel you were wrongly accused. Keep up the good debate.
[quote]Originally posted by rhett:
[b]My apologies PJH, if I sounded mean or insulting. I just found some of the things you said to be degrading "Have a happy life in your screwed up dreamworld kid. And remember, don't shoot other people with your gun, it's not a toy."[/b][/quote]
I already explained why are said all that, but I do admit that I could've perhaps said something else a little less "degrading" instead of that. But like I said, that what he said about me naturally affected me when I wrote that and I was tired too. I'm sorry if I used too harsh language.
[quote][b]But anyways, that is not the point of this discussion. Let me give this one more go (now that it is not midnight)
I am an avid hunter. That is part of the reason I own a gun and my father owns guns. My father has applied for a CWP (concealed weapons permit) and has been given one (after a background check he paid for). Why did he get one? Becuase he drives quite a lot between here and the Las Vegas area (about a 3 hour drive) with my younger sister and I. Lets say we break down. What is going to stop a pscho with ANY weapon (gun, knife, baseball bat) from trying to hurt our family? True, my dad and I are big guys, but my sister isn't.[/b][/quote]
That honestly sounds pretty awful to me if you need a gun to make that trip safely. Nowhere in my country it is that unsafe and that high risk to become a target of violence for normal people.
[quote][b]What you don't seem to understand is that those who use guns properly and know to fear them do this. My father has a big safe that is locked all the time. The only guns that are out are: 1) a shotgun and 2) a handgun (the one he has his CWP for). This is of course not including when we go hunting.[/b][/quote]
What I don't understand here is why are you keeping that shotgun out of the safe as well? And what's the point keeping only some guns in safe and some not anyway? It doesn't help much to keep only part of the guns locked up if there are still guns which aren't. Excluding the occasions when you actually use the guns.
[quote][b]Do you know that in order to hunt you must pay for a day long class on firearms safety? Then you must go to a place to by a hunting permit. PJH, you have said you dont mind hunting, this is just for those who dont think we should even allow hunting. We eat what we kill and that is the bottom line with real hunters.[/b][/quote]
That's ok by me. In fact my grandfather used to hunt a lot and he still has several hunting rifles and a shotgun. He used to keep them hanging on the wall, but after the law changed he has kept them locked up. And that means all the guns. And everything he ever hunted was eaten too.
[quote][b]This is a fairly useless topic, because the chance of anyone having a logical argument that would sway me against gun rights is minute. This is all an exercise in futility. At the end of this you will most likely still think exactly the same and I will most likely still think the same.[/b][/quote]
Perhaps so. But I hope we have gained at least something. Well, at least I have learned how some of you think about this subject and you have learned how I think about it.
[quote][b]The right to bear arms does not mean the right to kill. There is no where where you can go and shoot someone and get away with it scot free and clean. The Bill of Rights is not a license to kill, as you are implying. It simply provides you the right that if you want a weapon, it is free for you to have. What was the first thing knives were used for? Killing. What about bats? Killing.[/b][/quote]
You missed my point here entirely. Read my comments again.
And knives and bats were actually not invented for killing as far as I know and definitely are not used primarily for it in todays world.
[quote][b]I agree. But just because I am a gun owner and advocate of gun rights doesnt mean that you should think lower of me. How would you feel if I said for example, "Well, you are not a Christian so that reveals a lot about you and your character..." [/b][/quote]
I didn't "think lower of you" because of that. I only disagree with your opinion, that's all.
And that example statement you made wouldn't offend me a slightest bit, because it's true. It [b]would[/b] reveal a lot about me and my way of thinking. It might not reveal as much to some people though as it would to some others. How much it would reveal depends.
[quote][b]Or a gun.[/b][/quote]
I don't understand how a gun would help in that situation. If somebody surprises you and stabs you with a knife no gun can help you there. You can't get your gun and shoot the attacker if you're already dead, or badly wounded. It's a surprise attack. If you would be able to get a gun in that situation then you quite probably also could run and try to escape and get help, which is always the better alternative. Or you could get a baseball bat, which is a very effective weapon against a knife. I listed above some other alternatives and there are much more too.
[quote][b]I am going to try one more time to use this logic. What else is a knife for? Its used for killing. Sure there are exceptions (such as for cutting food) just as there are for guns. However, should we ban all knifes that are not table knives. They kill just as well.[/b][/quote]
No, the use of knives for killing is an exception and they are not meant for that purpose. Knives have many other uses, which are why the knives are for. That's why we can't ban them. Guns are entirely a different matter. Their primary use is killing and that is why they were invented in the first place. There are some exception like sports, but there aren't many. There's a major and a clear difference.
I think we have talked about this enough already.
[quote][b]Just as knives do, or baseball bats, or bags of rolled quarters. The key phrase here is [b]"in the hand of criminals"[/b] I am not a criminal so why should my guns be taken away. Some people abuse asprin and kill themselves, should we take away asprin? Some people abuse knives, so should we take them away? Some people abuse liquer and drive drunk, so should we take the cars away? You will say that this is different, but for the most part it isnt that much different. Again, I apologize if you feel you were wrongly accused. Keep up the good debate.[/B][/quote]
But it [b]is[/b] different and very much so too. Like I said, we have already talked about this enough and I've clearly stated my opinion about this. We are only going over the same things here.
And thanks for you too for a good debate, which hasn't gone to a flame war. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] I'm trying my best to keep it that way, but I'm not "a professional debater", so excuse me if I'm not perfect. I'm trying to understand other peoples views too and be flexible whenever possible. That's what makes me different from tyrants such as earlier mentioned Ho Chi Min btw. Don't worry, I'm not trying to take over the world. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
-PJH
[This message has been edited by PJH (edited 11-28-2002).]
Ok, this is the rising aggravation as I call it. there are two people involved, 1 and 2. 1 is angry at 2 for some reason.
a: 1 tells 2 that 2 is a jerk.
b: 2 tells 1 to go frell off.
c: 1 shouts at 2 and calls 2 names.
d: 2 throws a punch at 1 hitting 1 in the stomach.
e: 1 pulls a knife and threatens 2 with it.
f: 2 pulls another knife, waving it in front of 1s face.
g: 1 pulls a gun at 2.
ok, take a close look at the events stated above. This has happened and probably will again.
What happens after these events? Well, the worst thing that can happen is that 2 get shot in the face and dies immediately.
Lets say guns are forbidden in this country; The events stop at f, and the worst thing that can happen is that either 1 or 2 or both are stabbed multiple times, and bleed to death, both of which takes time, time during which either 1 or 2 could run, scream, whatever.
Lets say knives are forbidden in this country (they are here (certain lengths and stilettos etc.)); The events stop at 3, and the worst thing that can happen is a lengthy fistfight, there is a chance of major interior damage being caused, but that both takes a lot of time, and a lot of anger from 2 (drugs perhaps).
The best thing would of course be to stop at b or c, but not all people are rational, and in places where there are lots of cultural rifts, different languages etc, the chance of understanding each other is smaller, and the risk of violence in disputes is greater.
------------------
Talk is silver, but violence is gold.
Btw, guns and most knives are forbidden here. Because of this, I have always been sure that nothing bad can really happen to me on the streets (if I just pay attention to the traffic). I am never afraid, and Im grateful for that.
------------------
Talk is silver, but violence is gold.
[quote]Originally posted by PJH:
[b]I just don't like that people are acquiring guns for self defense in a modern civilized western world. That simply doesn't make any sense to me at all (except in some special circumstances like I mentioned earlier). It sounds more like a wild west era thing.
[/b][/quote]
You don't like that I excercise my right to own a gun? You don't like that I excercise my right to own one for defense? You think that because I don't agree with your opinion, that I don't have the capacity for common sense based upon your interpretation?
Hmmmmmmm... Well I won't beat a dead horse here, because I think you've shown your cards out in the open, more than I would ever need too...
Nice reply Jack. Yet one more personal comment against me. Who in this thread was degrading again? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/rolleyes.gif[/img]
[quote]Originally posted by PJH:
[b]Nice reply Jack. Yet one more personal comment against me. Who in this thread was degrading again? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/rolleyes.gif[/img]
No different than what you've done to others here recently. I simply put in words what I perceive to be an attitude that I'm inferior just because I wish to hold dear the rights I and others before me have known since the founding of this great country. Without it, things would have been much different here, and you might even have more to worry about in regards to America than you do. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
That your country may do things different is fine by me, since that's what works there. You appear to be comfortable with it's edicts, and that's fine. If I were to visit there, I would be bound to the laws of the land as much as I am here.
Just one last comment in regards to your previous post:
[quote]Originally posted by PJH:
[b]I just don't like that people are acquiring guns for self defense in a modern civilized western world... ...It sounds more like a wild west era thing.[/b][/quote]
Two things...
Modern civilized world
and
A Wild West Era thing
The West is still wild, and I don't know how civilized you think it is either! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Perhaps a different slant on the western attitude might shed light on the subject (or muddle the issue; who knows?)
America was founded in a revolution against a tyrant. That rebellion is ingrained in the Declaration of Indenpendence, the Constitution, and the American psyche (both East and West, though more so in the West and South). Americans are constantly watching for "Big Brother" or "Big Government" to start taking away our rights and impose its tyranny, just as George III did over 226 years ago. Paranoid? Perhaps, but its there.
PJH, when you state [quote]I just don't like that people are acquiring guns for self defense in a modern civilized western world. That simply doesn't make any sense to me at all (except in some special circumstances like I mentioned earlier). It sounds more like a wild west era thing.[/quote] the American mind thinks "Ah, but that DOES make sense in a modern civilized world, because no civilization has remained constant, and no freedoms have remained that were not fought for." Again, is this rationale thought? To most Americans, yes. Apparently to the rest of the world, no. But then again, I need to check my facts, but I believe we have one of the oldest democracies still around.
We learn on this side of the pond that government is of and for the people. However, history has shown that the leadershp of a government can be taken over by one or a few and then turned against the people. I'm thinking more Khmer Rouge than Nazis or Communists, but any of these will apply. Our best protection would be a required military service program for all citizens, similar to what is done in Finland(or Sweden; sorry, not to offend any of our Northern posters, but I really need to bone up on my Finland vs Sweden facts). For other reasons, however, this is no longer the case. The next best alternative is a legally armed populace. This reduces the likleyhood that a forced overthrow of the government will occur.
To all, I would also like to say thanks for the (reasonably) calm postings. I am certainly learning something about how we appear to other countries from this forum. Keep up the civil debate.
Bobo, I believe it is Finland (have a freind, jusas-remember the B5 RTS type project?, who is in the service over there) As for forced service, I think it would be great, but it ends up going against our (America's) value of freedom of choice type stuff.
A Swedish friend of mine was also 'drafted' but opted for the civil and ambulance service option. (Others got out of their service requirement because they were international level swimmers and came to the US to swim/train at a/my University.) To the best of my knowledge (and according to the CIA world factbook) mandatory service is a norm in both countries. I personally support the all volunteer military in the US - even though I've done my time- a forced/drafted military isn't going to be a very good one.
Edit: I also know that France and Spain have manditory service. In addition one Swedish guy I know ducked his draft by playing crazy - I don't know how he got away with it.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 12-02-2002).]
I'd also like to apologize if I chose my words carelessly in any of my posts. I honestly really don't mean and think that any of you would be any way "inferior", or that you would not have a common sense. I guess the words got a bit out of hand in the middle of debating and I was misunderstood.
And yes, we have a mandatory military service in Finland.
One of the things thats odd about the american psyche, especialy the conservative american psyche is that it is geared towards an expecation of the worst which is kinda ironic because with the notable exception of the Civil War things here have actualy been rather tranquil.. But "civilized" Europe has had how many wars in the past 200 years?
Its odd, America is suppost to be the crime capital of the western world, and we are, in terms of homicides, but Europe is catching up with us in violent crimes, heck, Im more likely to be beaten in a attack in many of the european nations then I was in New York City at night back when Darth Julliani was in charge!
hell if US crime rates just hold steady, or even go back up a bit, Europe is still going to catch up with us sooner or later.
And then we have suicides.. Nobody has explained to me this, if having firearms means more suicides, why is it that the gun heavy US has a Suicide rate that is lower then most of the European Countries? I think only 5 countries have lower suicide rates then ours, where as the rest are above us. Finland itself has like 3 times the suicides that the US does, even if it has a third of the homicides.. alot of people are still dying un-necessarily.
The causes for Homicdes and Suicides reflect I believe not just "guns" but something much more complicated about the society.. In the US the Black community has twice to three times the occurance of Homicides then the white community, where as the white community has three times the occurance of Suicides. There is something deeper going on in our communities then the presence of weapons.
In sort, the sky if falling and we are all doomed. Im gonna go grab a sandwich and some coke.
Don't mix the suicide rates into this discussion Tyvar, it's an entirely another matter and has nothing to do with this, or guns at all. Yes I know we have one of the highest if not the highest suicide rates in the world here in Finland, but it has nothing to do with homicides.
I'd like to post some more, but I gotta go now and unfortunately I won't be able to post more replies anytime soon, because I don't have an internet connection available for now. I'm posting this from another computer and don't know when I will be online again. Might take a week, maybe even two. Until then....
I think it does PJH, it is a manefestation of a problem with the culture, not with weapons.. people are dying for some reason and we need to get to the reasons for that, and not bandaids like "ban guns!" plus you ignored the rest of my post about rising European crime rates, the homicide rate in England keeps increasing even though firearms availibitly has gone down.. And several countries with large amounts of gun ownership have low homicide rates.
Frankly this is gonna get me into ALOT of trouble, but if you eliminiated the crimes commited by the Black and Hispanic people the US would have a crime rate on par with, or lower then that of almost all the European nations. And I mean, rate, not tottaly incidents, but the occurance of a type of crime per 100,000.. whats realy going on is a connection between poverty which is rampent in those two communities and all types of crime.
Woa! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/eek.gif[/img] [pulls out ten foot pole] Hmm, not long enough if I ever want to hope to run for a political office.
Though I have to admit that would be an interesting statistical investigation. Hmm.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 12-03-2002).]
Sorry to hear about your ordeal Drazi Guy! Not a nice experience. I can understand your bosses attitude... thats what my dad thinks. My parents own a farm in the countryside so there's always people on the go at night looking to sneak stuff out of the yard. As my dad says if you break their knee caps they won't come running back to steal again. Thankfully its never come to that, be we've had 2 occasions where we've had to fire the shotgun in the air to scare off trespassers. There's nothing like flicking on the spot light (which is very powerfull, lights up the whole yeard) and firing off a shot... scares the hell out of them. In that situation you're in control though, which helps. In a hold up situation, you have no control so its best to give them the cash and let them away. Lifes too short and its only money.
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'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]www.NialB5.com[/url].
[quote]Originally posted by Konrad:
[b]Woa! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/eek.gif[/img] [pulls out ten foot pole] Hmm, not long enough if I ever want to hope to run for a political office.
Though I have to admit that would be an interesting statistical investigation. Hmm.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 12-03-2002).][/b][/quote]
Yeah its nasty statistics, but when you look at the occurance of ultra high poverty, shattered familys and crappy education, you realize things are not that great in the Black and Hispanic communities, and alot of stuff needs to be fixed, Although in many of the poorer communities communities across the country they are already being addressed, and thats part of the reason the US's crime rate is going down.
The greatest thing about education is that it shifts crime from being violent to non violent.. so your money and stuff isnt safe, but dont worry you probalby wont be injured [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
[quote]Originally posted by Tyvar:
[b]The greatest thing about education is that it shifts crime from being violent to non violent.. so your money and stuff isnt safe, but dont worry you probably wont be injured [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
Yeah, that's because educated people tend to learn to give the SOB's everything instead of fighting for what's theirs.
That and they commit white collar crime, Im not just talking about execs and stuff, but even common people tend to try to screw somebody out of something..
sorry, Im back to having a low opinion of humanity again.
Comments
We had a lot of education about psychology and guns (since being a groupchief, Im responsble for my men and I have to take the gun if my men are acting irrationally).
The knowledge I took with me is simply this: Guns kill. People have feelings that are irrational, and sometimes overpowering. Do the maths yourself.
------------------
Talk is silver, but violence is gold.
Maybe I got to try to post it in two pieces.
- PJH
[quote]Originally posted by rhett:
[b]PJH, it doesnt even sound like you live in the US? If not, then back the hell off with trying to take my damn rights away. If you do, then party on, just lets try not to get to violent here... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
I'm not backing anywhere. And I'm not trying to take away anything either. I'm just stating my opinion and I have a right to do so. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
There's also no need to start "fighting", or anything like that, but I might give back the same way whatever is given to me if I see it appropriate. If noone "attacks me", insults me, goes into personalities, or anything like that, then I won't either, but if things go too far, then I remind you that the powers that be here will close, or/and delete this thread and the discussion is then over. It's up to you. I'm personally trying not to fall at an immature level. I hope noone is stupid enough to go overboard by trying to make me to do that.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[quote][b]But seriously, you have not listened (or read) what I have posted.[/b][/quote]
Yes I have and very carefully too.
[quote][b]Sure, killing with a knife is harder, but if I want to kill a woman or weak man with a knife is anything going to stop me (besides luck?).[/b][/quote]
Many things. Legs (escaping), locking up behind a door, yelling help and getting help from others nearby, using different kind of non-lethal but strong and affecting sprays, using a device which gives an electric shock and paralyzes the attacker etc. etc. There are many many ways and certainly even many more ways I don't even know about myself. Find out if you're interested. I'm sure there's lots of information available on the net too.
[quote][b]Garoteting is where you take a thin sharp thing (such as piano wire) and come up behind someone and choke them to death or cut there windpipe with it.[/b][/quote]
Thanks for the explanation. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[quote][b]Give me one good way for a suprised five foot woman to defend herself from an attacker with a knife. Traditional self defense will not help for long against a large guy (or even girl).[/b][/quote]
I don't think nothing would help in that kind of situation except a good luck.
[quote][b]What do my personal opinions about gun ownership (or anyones opinion) reveal what kind of person I really am?[/b][/quote]
Many things you say (and do) reveal parts of your personality. Some more, some less. Basically opinions always reveal something. If you want a lecture go to school.
[quote][b]PJH, you have not presented one logical argument here without becoming insulting and degrading.[/b][/quote]
Eh? I have to say that now you've complitely lost me. I haven't become insulting or degrading at any point when writing my arguments.
I only gave a little bit back to Konrad who [b]first[/b] made a personal comments about me. I also said after that (because of that very reason), that I would stop discussing about this topic any further. In other words, I didn't want to continue the discussion because it had evolved to a point where personal comments were being made.
Besides in fact Rhett, that comment of yours is a personal remark against me making it a second one already in this thread.
And what about those "then back the hell off" comments then where you're even swearing? That sounds very insulted mans talk to me.
Now I don't really mean this as an insult, but I'd like to remind you of a famous saying about watching in the mirror.
- PJH
[This message has been edited by PJH (edited 11-28-2002).]
[b]Piece #2.[/b]
[quote][b]As I said before, even if I hated guns I would not take away guns. Why? Because once you say it is ok to change the Bill of Rights, what goes next? How about freedom of religion? After all, by following a different religion than I do "revealed to me what kind of person you really are. Also the mere enthusiasm how you defend something like [religion] already tells a lot about you and your values. Thanks very much."
Or how about freedom of speech? If we say it is ok to change one, how easy will it be to change another, and another, until there are none left?[/b][/quote]
What about if there was in the Bill Of Rights a right to kill anyone you want just like that without getting punished? If you would take that away then what goes next?
You are essentially telling here, that because something is in the Bill Of Rights it's unchangeable and can't be wrong. You're giving out impression, that it's above everything else including common sense and moral.
Doesn't sound very good to me.
[quote][b]PJH, dont start getting all insulting just because we dont agree... As the philosopher Rodney King once said, "Cant we all just get along?" [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
Again I don't understand, what you are talking about. Like I pointed out above, you actually made a remarks about me. I never insulted anybody. Again I only gave a little back to Konrad like I already mentioned. And of course
I was naturally a bit emotional when writing that after just reading a not very kind personal comment about me as you may understand. I even thought about writing an additional post to tell him that I really didn't want to insult him and was only giving him back to show that I'm not going to tolerate going into personalities. Well maybe a little bit of frustration was there too and being tired I admit, but I wouldn't have started to post anything like that only because of that. It only added to the said reason why I posted it. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
And if I emhasize something, or/and use as an example something "to a degree emotional comment" to make my point better out, it's not meant as an insult.
But remember though, that we are all humans (well except Jack, Randy, John and Biggles [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/tongue.gif[/img] ) and we have emotions, so if we feel that we are insulted we usually give back too. And I would actually be quite worried if we didn't.
Yes, we can get along, I hope. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
- PJH
[This message has been edited by PJH (edited 11-28-2002).]
Yes I do believe in some sort and let me make this perfectly clear! SOME SORT! of gun control!
I don't think people need automatic weapon or main battle tanks!
But I do believe, weather right or wrong, it is my right as an American citizen, as long as I am not a convicted felon, to own a rifle or hand gun!
I keep them locked up and the ammo locked in a separate place and no one but me and my wife have the key.
I enjoy skeet shooting, Deer hunting and small game. But I only hunt what I intend on eating and do not think of it as a sport!
I figure it would only be a sport if they could shoot back! I do it to kee my skills sharp!
------------------
[b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
[b]Just posting my thoughts here. I have been in the military (both drafted and stayed on afterwards), Ive learned to use a variety of weapons, and Ive seen what they can do.
We had a lot of education about psychology and guns (since being a groupchief, Im responsble for my men and I have to take the gun if my men are acting irrationally).
The knowledge I took with me is simply this: Guns kill. People have feelings that are irrational, and sometimes overpowering. Do the maths yourself.
[/b][/quote]
Finally someone who doesn't disagree with me and actually makes sense. Can't agree more with that statement. I had actually forgotten to bring out that people have irrational feelings, which is a very good point and gives much more weight to what I've been saying about.
I was already wondering that am I the only one representing "this side of view" who's got the courage to say what they think about this in addition of Shadow Boxer. Or is it lazyness? Or do people think that it's useless? Actually though I think partly like that myself too and I often have no time to even read all posts. Sometimes I simply have no interest. All those "useless" "GREEN!"-posts get piles of replies in very short time though.
- PJH
SHHHEEEEEEUUUUUUUTTTT UP ! already !
1. guns are nasty when used by nasty people
2. we all agree that we should reduce the access nasty people have to guns ,
3. we all want sensible legislation and education and controlled but available firearms in all but militrary grade .
agreed ?
If not,
I open up... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
**CHIK CHAK, CHIK CHAK...**
[b]Hey no matter what legislation they put out their man has been killing his fellow man since time began!
Yes I do believe in some sort and let me make this perfectly clear! SOME SORT! of gun control!
I don't think people need automatic weapon or main battle tanks!
But I do believe, weather right or wrong, it is my right as an American citizen, as long as I am not a convicted felon, to own a rifle or hand gun!
I keep them locked up and the ammo locked in a separate place and no one but me and my wife have the key.
I enjoy skeet shooting, Deer hunting and small game. But I only hunt what I intend on eating and do not think of it as a sport!
I figure it would only be a sport if they could shoot back! I do it to kee my skills sharp!
[/b][/quote]
That's ok by me Argone and I'm glad to hear that you keep them locked up and ammo in a separate place. It's much more safe that way.
Like I said, I think guns for hunting and sports are ok. There may be other uses and reasons to own a gun too that I can accept as well, but I haven't thought about them much and didn't want to start listing them all here.
I just don't like that people are acquiring guns for self defense in a modern civilized western world. That simply doesn't make any sense to me at all (except in some special circumstances like I mentioned earlier). It sounds more like a wild west era thing.
[quote][b]I don't think people need automatic weapon or main battle tanks![/b][/quote]
Well hopefully not those at least! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
- PJH
[b]**locks and loads a pair of M-60's**
SHHHEEEEEEUUUUUUUTTTT UP ! already !
1. guns are nasty when used by nasty people
2. we all agree that we should reduce the access nasty people have to guns ,
3. we all want sensible legislation and education and controlled but available firearms in all but militrary grade .
agreed ?
If not,
I open up... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
**CHIK CHAK, CHIK CHAK...**[/b][/quote]
Hehehe... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/eek.gif[/img] ....hey man! Don't shoot! *BANG BANG* *dives behind a rock* [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/eek.gif[/img]
Yes, I basically agree with all those 3 parts, but the opinions of the content of that 3rd part differ, which is why we were debating in the first place. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
-PJH
But anyways, that is not the point of this discussion. Let me give this one more go (now that it is not midnight)
I am an avid hunter. That is part of the reason I own a gun and my father owns guns. My father has applied for a CWP (concealed weapons permit) and has been given one (after a background check he paid for). Why did he get one? Becuase he drives quite a lot between here and the Las Vegas area (about a 3 hour drive) with my younger sister and I. Lets say we break down. What is going to stop a pscho with ANY weapon (gun, knife, baseball bat) from trying to hurt our family? True, my dad and I are big guys, but my sister isn't.
"That's ok by me Argone and I'm glad to hear that you keep them locked up and ammo in a separate place. It's much more safe that way. "
What you don't seem to understand is that those who use guns properly and know to fear them do this. My father has a big safe that is locked all the time. The only guns that are out are: 1) a shotgun and 2) a handgun (the one he has his CWP for). This is of course not including when we go hunting.
Do you know that in order to hunt you must pay for a day long class on firearms safety? Then you must go to a place to by a hunting permit. PJH, you have said you dont mind hunting, this is just for those who dont think we should even allow hunting. We eat what we kill and that is the bottom line with real hunters.
[quote]I was already wondering that am I the only one representing "this side of view" who's got the courage to say what they think about this in addition of Shadow Boxer. Or is it lazyness? Or do people think that it's useless? Actually though I think partly like that myself too and I often have no time to even read all posts. Sometimes I simply have no interest. All those "useless" "GREEN!"-posts get piles of replies in very short time though.
- PJH
[/quote]
This is a fairly useless topic, because the chance of anyone having a logical argument that would sway me against gun rights is minute. This is all an exercise in futility. At the end of this you will most likely still think exactly the same and I will most likely still think the same.
[quote] posted 11-28-2002 05:44 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That seemed to work. Are there somekind of lenght limitations for messages, or other limitations I might have exceeded?
Piece #2.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As I said before, even if I hated guns I would not take away guns. Why? Because once you say it is ok to change the Bill of Rights, what goes next? How about freedom of religion? After all, by following a different religion than I do "revealed to me what kind of person you really are. Also the mere enthusiasm how you defend something like [religion] already tells a lot about you and your values. Thanks very much."
Or how about freedom of speech? If we say it is ok to change one, how easy will it be to change another, and another, until there are none left?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What about if there was in the Bill Of Rights a right to kill anyone you want just like that without getting punished? If you would take that away then what goes next?
You are essentially telling here, that because something is in the Bill Of Rights it's unchangeable and can't be wrong. You're giving out impression, that it's above everything else including common sense and moral.
Doesn't sound very good to me.
[/quote]
The right to bear arms does not mean the right to kill. There is no where where you can go and shoot someone and get away with it scot free and clean. The Bill of Rights is not a license to kill, as you are implying. It simply provides you the right that if you want a weapon, it is free for you to have. What was the first thing knives were used for? Killing. What about bats? Killing.
[quote]Many things you say (and do) reveal parts of your personality. Some more, some less. Basically opinions always reveal something. If you want a lecture go to school.[/quote]
I agree. But just because I am a gun owner and advocate of gun rights doesnt mean that you should think lower of me. How would you feel if I said for example, "Well, you are not a Christian so that reveals a lot about you and your character..."
[quote]I don't think nothing would help in that kind of situation except a good luck.[/quote]
Or a gun.
[quote]Yes, exactly, they are tools, tools meant to do evil things. Killing and wounding living beings. Destroying things. Excluding those I already mentioned at least twice already, hunting and sports.[/quote]
I am going to try one more time to use this logic. What else is a knife for? Its used for killing. Sure there are exceptions (such as for cutting food) just as there are for guns. However, should we ban all knifes that are not table knives. They kill just as well.
[quote]And like already said about spoons, computers don't kill either, guns do in hand of criminals.[/quote]
Just as knives do, or baseball bats, or bags of rolled quarters. The key phrase here is [b]"in the hand of criminals"[/b] I am not a criminal so why should my guns be taken away. Some people abuse asprin and kill themselves, should we take away asprin? Some people abuse knives, so should we take them away? Some people abuse liquer and drive drunk, so should we take the cars away? You will say that this is different, but for the most part it isnt that much different. Again, I apologize if you feel you were wrongly accused. Keep up the good debate.
[b]My apologies PJH, if I sounded mean or insulting. I just found some of the things you said to be degrading "Have a happy life in your screwed up dreamworld kid. And remember, don't shoot other people with your gun, it's not a toy."[/b][/quote]
I already explained why are said all that, but I do admit that I could've perhaps said something else a little less "degrading" instead of that. But like I said, that what he said about me naturally affected me when I wrote that and I was tired too. I'm sorry if I used too harsh language.
[quote][b]But anyways, that is not the point of this discussion. Let me give this one more go (now that it is not midnight)
I am an avid hunter. That is part of the reason I own a gun and my father owns guns. My father has applied for a CWP (concealed weapons permit) and has been given one (after a background check he paid for). Why did he get one? Becuase he drives quite a lot between here and the Las Vegas area (about a 3 hour drive) with my younger sister and I. Lets say we break down. What is going to stop a pscho with ANY weapon (gun, knife, baseball bat) from trying to hurt our family? True, my dad and I are big guys, but my sister isn't.[/b][/quote]
That honestly sounds pretty awful to me if you need a gun to make that trip safely. Nowhere in my country it is that unsafe and that high risk to become a target of violence for normal people.
[quote][b]What you don't seem to understand is that those who use guns properly and know to fear them do this. My father has a big safe that is locked all the time. The only guns that are out are: 1) a shotgun and 2) a handgun (the one he has his CWP for). This is of course not including when we go hunting.[/b][/quote]
What I don't understand here is why are you keeping that shotgun out of the safe as well? And what's the point keeping only some guns in safe and some not anyway? It doesn't help much to keep only part of the guns locked up if there are still guns which aren't. Excluding the occasions when you actually use the guns.
[quote][b]Do you know that in order to hunt you must pay for a day long class on firearms safety? Then you must go to a place to by a hunting permit. PJH, you have said you dont mind hunting, this is just for those who dont think we should even allow hunting. We eat what we kill and that is the bottom line with real hunters.[/b][/quote]
That's ok by me. In fact my grandfather used to hunt a lot and he still has several hunting rifles and a shotgun. He used to keep them hanging on the wall, but after the law changed he has kept them locked up. And that means all the guns. And everything he ever hunted was eaten too.
[quote][b]This is a fairly useless topic, because the chance of anyone having a logical argument that would sway me against gun rights is minute. This is all an exercise in futility. At the end of this you will most likely still think exactly the same and I will most likely still think the same.[/b][/quote]
Perhaps so. But I hope we have gained at least something. Well, at least I have learned how some of you think about this subject and you have learned how I think about it.
[quote][b]The right to bear arms does not mean the right to kill. There is no where where you can go and shoot someone and get away with it scot free and clean. The Bill of Rights is not a license to kill, as you are implying. It simply provides you the right that if you want a weapon, it is free for you to have. What was the first thing knives were used for? Killing. What about bats? Killing.[/b][/quote]
You missed my point here entirely. Read my comments again.
And knives and bats were actually not invented for killing as far as I know and definitely are not used primarily for it in todays world.
[quote][b]I agree. But just because I am a gun owner and advocate of gun rights doesnt mean that you should think lower of me. How would you feel if I said for example, "Well, you are not a Christian so that reveals a lot about you and your character..." [/b][/quote]
I didn't "think lower of you" because of that. I only disagree with your opinion, that's all.
And that example statement you made wouldn't offend me a slightest bit, because it's true. It [b]would[/b] reveal a lot about me and my way of thinking. It might not reveal as much to some people though as it would to some others. How much it would reveal depends.
[quote][b]Or a gun.[/b][/quote]
I don't understand how a gun would help in that situation. If somebody surprises you and stabs you with a knife no gun can help you there. You can't get your gun and shoot the attacker if you're already dead, or badly wounded. It's a surprise attack. If you would be able to get a gun in that situation then you quite probably also could run and try to escape and get help, which is always the better alternative. Or you could get a baseball bat, which is a very effective weapon against a knife. I listed above some other alternatives and there are much more too.
[quote][b]I am going to try one more time to use this logic. What else is a knife for? Its used for killing. Sure there are exceptions (such as for cutting food) just as there are for guns. However, should we ban all knifes that are not table knives. They kill just as well.[/b][/quote]
No, the use of knives for killing is an exception and they are not meant for that purpose. Knives have many other uses, which are why the knives are for. That's why we can't ban them. Guns are entirely a different matter. Their primary use is killing and that is why they were invented in the first place. There are some exception like sports, but there aren't many. There's a major and a clear difference.
I think we have talked about this enough already.
[quote][b]Just as knives do, or baseball bats, or bags of rolled quarters. The key phrase here is [b]"in the hand of criminals"[/b] I am not a criminal so why should my guns be taken away. Some people abuse asprin and kill themselves, should we take away asprin? Some people abuse knives, so should we take them away? Some people abuse liquer and drive drunk, so should we take the cars away? You will say that this is different, but for the most part it isnt that much different. Again, I apologize if you feel you were wrongly accused. Keep up the good debate.[/B][/quote]
But it [b]is[/b] different and very much so too. Like I said, we have already talked about this enough and I've clearly stated my opinion about this. We are only going over the same things here.
And thanks for you too for a good debate, which hasn't gone to a flame war. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] I'm trying my best to keep it that way, but I'm not "a professional debater", so excuse me if I'm not perfect. I'm trying to understand other peoples views too and be flexible whenever possible. That's what makes me different from tyrants such as earlier mentioned Ho Chi Min btw. Don't worry, I'm not trying to take over the world. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
-PJH
[This message has been edited by PJH (edited 11-28-2002).]
a: 1 tells 2 that 2 is a jerk.
b: 2 tells 1 to go frell off.
c: 1 shouts at 2 and calls 2 names.
d: 2 throws a punch at 1 hitting 1 in the stomach.
e: 1 pulls a knife and threatens 2 with it.
f: 2 pulls another knife, waving it in front of 1s face.
g: 1 pulls a gun at 2.
ok, take a close look at the events stated above. This has happened and probably will again.
What happens after these events? Well, the worst thing that can happen is that 2 get shot in the face and dies immediately.
Lets say guns are forbidden in this country; The events stop at f, and the worst thing that can happen is that either 1 or 2 or both are stabbed multiple times, and bleed to death, both of which takes time, time during which either 1 or 2 could run, scream, whatever.
Lets say knives are forbidden in this country (they are here (certain lengths and stilettos etc.)); The events stop at 3, and the worst thing that can happen is a lengthy fistfight, there is a chance of major interior damage being caused, but that both takes a lot of time, and a lot of anger from 2 (drugs perhaps).
The best thing would of course be to stop at b or c, but not all people are rational, and in places where there are lots of cultural rifts, different languages etc, the chance of understanding each other is smaller, and the risk of violence in disputes is greater.
------------------
Talk is silver, but violence is gold.
------------------
Talk is silver, but violence is gold.
[b]I just don't like that people are acquiring guns for self defense in a modern civilized western world. That simply doesn't make any sense to me at all (except in some special circumstances like I mentioned earlier). It sounds more like a wild west era thing.
[/b][/quote]
You don't like that I excercise my right to own a gun? You don't like that I excercise my right to own one for defense? You think that because I don't agree with your opinion, that I don't have the capacity for common sense based upon your interpretation?
Hmmmmmmm... Well I won't beat a dead horse here, because I think you've shown your cards out in the open, more than I would ever need too...
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
- PJH
[b]Nice reply Jack. Yet one more personal comment against me. Who in this thread was degrading again? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/rolleyes.gif[/img]
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
- PJH[/b][/quote]
No different than what you've done to others here recently. I simply put in words what I perceive to be an attitude that I'm inferior just because I wish to hold dear the rights I and others before me have known since the founding of this great country. Without it, things would have been much different here, and you might even have more to worry about in regards to America than you do. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
That your country may do things different is fine by me, since that's what works there. You appear to be comfortable with it's edicts, and that's fine. If I were to visit there, I would be bound to the laws of the land as much as I am here.
Just one last comment in regards to your previous post:
[quote]Originally posted by PJH:
[b]I just don't like that people are acquiring guns for self defense in a modern civilized western world... ...It sounds more like a wild west era thing.[/b][/quote]
Two things...
Modern civilized world
and
A Wild West Era thing
The West is still wild, and I don't know how civilized you think it is either! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
America was founded in a revolution against a tyrant. That rebellion is ingrained in the Declaration of Indenpendence, the Constitution, and the American psyche (both East and West, though more so in the West and South). Americans are constantly watching for "Big Brother" or "Big Government" to start taking away our rights and impose its tyranny, just as George III did over 226 years ago. Paranoid? Perhaps, but its there.
PJH, when you state [quote]I just don't like that people are acquiring guns for self defense in a modern civilized western world. That simply doesn't make any sense to me at all (except in some special circumstances like I mentioned earlier). It sounds more like a wild west era thing.[/quote] the American mind thinks "Ah, but that DOES make sense in a modern civilized world, because no civilization has remained constant, and no freedoms have remained that were not fought for." Again, is this rationale thought? To most Americans, yes. Apparently to the rest of the world, no. But then again, I need to check my facts, but I believe we have one of the oldest democracies still around.
We learn on this side of the pond that government is of and for the people. However, history has shown that the leadershp of a government can be taken over by one or a few and then turned against the people. I'm thinking more Khmer Rouge than Nazis or Communists, but any of these will apply. Our best protection would be a required military service program for all citizens, similar to what is done in Finland(or Sweden; sorry, not to offend any of our Northern posters, but I really need to bone up on my Finland vs Sweden facts). For other reasons, however, this is no longer the case. The next best alternative is a legally armed populace. This reduces the likleyhood that a forced overthrow of the government will occur.
To all, I would also like to say thanks for the (reasonably) calm postings. I am certainly learning something about how we appear to other countries from this forum. Keep up the civil debate.
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bobo
<*>
B5:ITF
Edit: I also know that France and Spain have manditory service. In addition one Swedish guy I know ducked his draft by playing crazy - I don't know how he got away with it.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 12-02-2002).]
I'd also like to apologize if I chose my words carelessly in any of my posts. I honestly really don't mean and think that any of you would be any way "inferior", or that you would not have a common sense. I guess the words got a bit out of hand in the middle of debating and I was misunderstood.
And yes, we have a mandatory military service in Finland.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
- PJH
Its odd, America is suppost to be the crime capital of the western world, and we are, in terms of homicides, but Europe is catching up with us in violent crimes, heck, Im more likely to be beaten in a attack in many of the european nations then I was in New York City at night back when Darth Julliani was in charge!
hell if US crime rates just hold steady, or even go back up a bit, Europe is still going to catch up with us sooner or later.
And then we have suicides.. Nobody has explained to me this, if having firearms means more suicides, why is it that the gun heavy US has a Suicide rate that is lower then most of the European Countries? I think only 5 countries have lower suicide rates then ours, where as the rest are above us. Finland itself has like 3 times the suicides that the US does, even if it has a third of the homicides.. alot of people are still dying un-necessarily.
The causes for Homicdes and Suicides reflect I believe not just "guns" but something much more complicated about the society.. In the US the Black community has twice to three times the occurance of Homicides then the white community, where as the white community has three times the occurance of Suicides. There is something deeper going on in our communities then the presence of weapons.
In sort, the sky if falling and we are all doomed. Im gonna go grab a sandwich and some coke.
I'd like to post some more, but I gotta go now and unfortunately I won't be able to post more replies anytime soon, because I don't have an internet connection available for now. I'm posting this from another computer and don't know when I will be online again. Might take a week, maybe even two. Until then....
- PJH
Frankly this is gonna get me into ALOT of trouble, but if you eliminiated the crimes commited by the Black and Hispanic people the US would have a crime rate on par with, or lower then that of almost all the European nations. And I mean, rate, not tottaly incidents, but the occurance of a type of crime per 100,000.. whats realy going on is a connection between poverty which is rampent in those two communities and all types of crime.
Though I have to admit that would be an interesting statistical investigation. Hmm.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 12-03-2002).]
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'The future is all around us' G'kar
'I have no surviving enemies! None what so ever!' Galen
Visit my B5 site at: [url="http://www.nialb5.com"]www.NialB5.com[/url].
[b]Woa! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/eek.gif[/img] [pulls out ten foot pole] Hmm, not long enough if I ever want to hope to run for a political office.
Though I have to admit that would be an interesting statistical investigation. Hmm.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 12-03-2002).][/b][/quote]
Yeah its nasty statistics, but when you look at the occurance of ultra high poverty, shattered familys and crappy education, you realize things are not that great in the Black and Hispanic communities, and alot of stuff needs to be fixed, Although in many of the poorer communities communities across the country they are already being addressed, and thats part of the reason the US's crime rate is going down.
The greatest thing about education is that it shifts crime from being violent to non violent.. so your money and stuff isnt safe, but dont worry you probalby wont be injured [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
[b]The greatest thing about education is that it shifts crime from being violent to non violent.. so your money and stuff isnt safe, but dont worry you probably wont be injured [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
Yeah, that's because educated people tend to learn to give the SOB's everything instead of fighting for what's theirs.
"Live to be robbed another day."
sorry, Im back to having a low opinion of humanity again.
[url="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,72371,00.html"]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,72371,00.html[/url]
<runs away real fast>
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We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!