while I wholeheartedly agree with firearms training, I disagree strongly with the kind of attitude Tyvar expresses along with it perhaps not overtly but its there just the same.
I take my friends out the farm with me and teach them how to use firearms. I always emphasise saftey above all else, and I also insist that if any 'just lookers' come along, they learn atleast, how to make a loaded weapon, unloaded and safe. How to disable one quickly and easily.
Basically learning how to deal with guns because they are a part of life. Man will always have weapons of some description, everyone should know how to handle them even if only to know how to make them less dangerous to persons and property.
I freely admit I like to enjoy my 'inner redneck' and have fun wuth guns and I very much enjoy hunting.
What I detest is the 'home defence' league, who dream of one day being broken into so they have the excuse to shoot someone and others of similar ilk. While I'm sure Tyvar isnt prescibing gun violence, the free an easy availability of guns and the paranoia and 'urban combat' mentality which I see leanings of, really gives me pause for concern.
This is not a personal attack Tyvar, from the outside looking in you look perhaps quite a bit different to what you think.
In short, guns are cool. The general 'gun nut' attitude in the US, certainly, is not.
Funny: I don't care for the sport hunter types (though I don't support eliminating hunting), but I myself am very into home defense and home defense training.
I guess you would have to be around the urban gangs who show no mercy, thought, or emotion, and are no better than animals to understand some of the 'paranoia'. I myself, and many of my female friends, are lightweights and wouldn't do well in a tussle of any kind against an oversized drug or steroid using lunatic. Not to many of them down under huh?
At any rate the majority of the time that a gun is pulled in self defense it isn't used, instead the perpetrator runs away to find a less armed victim.
Dreaming of one day shooting someone is one thing, just be carefull not to go too far in condemning the use of weapons in self-defense against rapists, thieves and murderers.
I do think calling it 'free and easy availability' to guns is a bit over the top.
[quote]Originally posted by Drazi Guy:
[b]Pretty much anywhere outside of America in the Western world are low in guns, including Canada. I can't think of the last time a gun was used in a robbery around here. Even in Toronto, with 3.5 million people, gun violence is very low. Less than 80 murders a year if I recall correctly. So having one under the counter isn't really feasible. And I wouldn't shoot somebody anyways. Easier to hand over the money and hope for the best. Its all insured.[/b][/quote]
I agree about the shooting thing to an extent...
I would NOT shoot to kill, shoot his arm (The one thats holding the knife) or a kneecap off...then let the medical people treat him.
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[b]whitestar90: [/b]"it would give the computer a heartattack just looking at it" -
[b]Sanfam: [/b]"And Drazi didn't like it one bit.-
[b]Mr.Bungle: [/b][i]"So that's where the forum went..."[/i]-
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[b][i]ahhh, the good old days of HTML.[/i][/b]
[quote]Originally posted by A2597:
[b]...shoot his arm (The one thats holding the knife) or a kneecap off...then let the medical people treat him.[/b][/quote]
yeah, and then get sued by his lawyer for it!
Now there's something that needs control! Lawyers!
...(no offense to any lawyers on the boards [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] )
trust me.. guns are FREELY available in the US in comparison to any other country in the world.
To own a gun in Australia you must sit a weekend theory and practical firearms course costing about $125 US. You must wait 30 days before you can pick up a purchased firearm, and that includes the most innocous of BB guns and air rifles.
To own a pistol here you must be a sane member of a pistol shooting club, offically you are supposed to store your gun at the club and only take it home to 'clean and service it'. Fire it anywhere else and you are in deep shit.
The police have carte blanche as far as you keeping your guns, it's at thier disgression. If you have a pile of unpaid parking tickets and you get abusive... kiss your guns and your gun licence goobye in some cases. Any hint of mental instability from a medical professional about you and you are 'gun free' as well.
To use a pump action shotgun, semi-auto .22 rifle, or any self loading long arm for that matter, you need a sworn statement from a Justice of the Peace every calender year to obtain a C class licence.
After a recent pistol shooting here very soon you will only be able to own a pistol if you are a presecribed Olympic or Commonwealth Games pistol shooter...
Guns are available from perhaps 3 specific gun shops per million population, thats about sixty gun shops TOTAL for Australia. You can buy a pump shotgun at Walmart in the US, how many Walmarts are there ??
need I go on ?
The US has a completely and utterly statutory and deeply psychologically and culturally embedded gun culture. It served you well when you had Redcoats, Kodiaks, Venison and Turkey to shoot, when the ammendment the gun nuts hide behind, was written.
Somewhere between Australia's current Laws and those of the US, lays gun law Nirvarna.
As far as crack tooting, gun toting nuts go, you're right, you're ****ed with a gun in the mean streets of alot of US capitals.
Better go to Walmart and buy one.
Freedom is one thing, the right to bear arms is another.
Civilian firearms should be a frikkin Privledge, not an automatic right. If the US had been sensible about guns from the beginning, there wouldn't be as much gun related strife as there is now.
Far as I'm concerned, bring on the release of the capsicum paintball round for public use... and throw out any case where a felon is trying to sue for damages against his/her victim when these or any other non leathal weapon is used.
Paintballs in themselves hurt like hell and bruise up exposed skin very well, the dose of chemical irritant may just tilt the balance. H and K Heirstal in Germany have made a complete military grade piece to fire these, far as I'm concerned a hefty rebate on those would be a bloody good idea. Some of the good semi auto paintball guns carry hoppers of 250 rounds... plenty for under the counter spray and pray from an untrained defender.
In fact, bring on every conceivable form of non lethal, effective retaliatory weapon, and by effective, I mean a real possibility of coming off much better than a guy with a 'real' gun.
I also hope the advent of the Phaser will bring about a significant change in the 'battlefield'. It would be quite amusing to see an assailant cooked on a few hundred thousand volts and be chucked quivering into a black and white...
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]while I wholeheartedly agree with firearms training, I disagree strongly with the kind of attitude Tyvar expresses along with it perhaps not overtly but its there just the same.
I take my friends out the farm with me and teach them how to use firearms. I always emphasise saftey above all else, and I also insist that if any 'just lookers' come along, they learn atleast, how to make a loaded weapon, unloaded and safe. How to disable one quickly and easily.
Basically learning how to deal with guns because they are a part of life. Man will always have weapons of some description, everyone should know how to handle them even if only to know how to make them less dangerous to persons and property.
I freely admit I like to enjoy my 'inner redneck' and have fun wuth guns and I very much enjoy hunting.
What I detest is the 'home defence' league, who dream of one day being broken into so they have the excuse to shoot someone and others of similar ilk. While I'm sure Tyvar isnt prescibing gun violence, the free an easy availability of guns and the paranoia and 'urban combat' mentality which I see leanings of, really gives me pause for concern.
This is not a personal attack Tyvar, from the outside looking in you look perhaps quite a bit different to what you think.
In short, guns are cool. The general 'gun nut' attitude in the US, certainly, is not.[/b][/quote]
I wouldnt consider the fairly intensive training courses I was detailing to be "gun nut" If your going to use a firearm for defense you better have been trained to near a professional level, or in the most dire circomstances, or else you put to many people at risk. The handgun and shotgun courses teach how to properly use a weapon in a self defense situation, and I believe the the depth and intensity of the courses is appropriate.
I did grow up an avid shooter, and I leared quite early that it would be best to be quite well trained in a self defense situation. I have a family of combat vets SB, I have had it explained to me quite well that shooting at cans, or even the occasional elk is a hell of alot different then when people are trying to kill you back, and the only way to deal with that succesfully is to have training of the level that your shooting habbits, once you draw the gun are by almost automatic reflex, and bypasses your fear and anxiety. And lastly even then you have to realize things just happen, Murphy's law and all. I do NOT take firearms defense frivously, but I have been educated by those much older, wiser and more experienced in these things then I am.
And for the record the SMG courses are availble only to those in law enforcement, all though they do have a carefully controlled program for civillians to shoot them, so that you can have the experience in a safe environment. I was joking about their pressence, Ive seen through a glass window those classes taking place, and it reinforces my belief that automatic weapons are only usefull in military applications for suppresive fire, most police even with 9mm SMGs seem to be relativly inaccurate with the things.
Sorry about the nasty tone and language errors, I wasnt quite awake when I wrote this, so I reacted a bit strongly.
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 11-15-2002).]
my comments relate directly to the ingrained gun culture present in the US, your comments gave away the underlying culture...
While I can make absolutely no claim to having any experience with genuine combat, I do know what you mean by reflexive unthinking shooting, and being well trained in taking those sorts of shots.
While bunnies dont mount SMG's, hunting them requires some real skill if you do a 'walk through', rabbits spring from around your feet often times, from the lays, and you have to be fast and slick to hit them, with pistol or shotgun.
Same applies in paintball, this time they shoot back. Then you learn about cover, about on the fly 'risk assessment' inside a tenth of a second and bringing a weapon to bear without so much as a thought.
From those experiences alone theres no way I want to be involved in a real firefight...
because with firearms, the difference between your life and 'theirs' is less than a blink of an eye...
I think I was resenting your general concensus about the "american gun culture" As a member of the american shooting community I can tell you that a healthy chunk of the gun community here doesnt wish to get into some kind of bloody urban combat situation, because a healthy chunk of them have already seen it in some form and wouldnt relish seeing it again.
The gun culture that you see reflected in TV, or certain "wanna be" magazines does not reflect the majority of gun owners in the united states.
Im sure your a fine man with your weapons and hunting rabbits isnt easy, Ive done it and I know how quick the little suckers can be. Then again elk for being large critters move awful quietly at times and blend in with their home well. hell Ive litteraly turned the corner around a path at the bottom of a ridge and come face to face a young bull, I wasnt sure which one of us was the most suprised. Also I wasn't attempting to cast dipersions on your firearms skills, what I was attemptin to do was counter the opinion that was prevalent here it is a simple matter to have a gun and deploy it, where as thats the farthest thing from the truth.
I have a similar shooting background as you do and what I was stating is that even with a healthy knowledge of shooting, the outcome of a confrontation is far from certain.
The concept of simply being able to shoot an attacker in the arm or leg is foolish, you dont have the time for such a shot, and its more difficult then TV/Movies or computer games make such things seem, MUCH more difficult, especialy with a handgun, under stress.
Sorry A# but your post actualy set my teeth on edge a bit, its too cavalier, and I think SB would be a bit more appropriate in critising it in view of his beliefs about the american gun culture then my posts [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
I know one thing, if you are in a situation where you must draw a gun, or any other lethal weapon you have one objective, the death of your target, if you believe other wise and attempt to do otherwise without being a profesional sniper/spec ops/SWAT guy, all you are doing is making it more likely you and other innocents will die. In fact most cops (except for the SWAT type snipers) are explicitly trained NOT to use such tactics.
By mentioning the training I was mentioning the criteria in which I would feel comfortable with myself or others praciticing concealled carry, the training is suitable for the police officers in my state and thus I deam it suitable for civilians as well in order to instruct them to be responsible in the use of leathal force.
[quote]Originally posted by JackN:
[b] yeah, and then get sued by his lawyer for it!
Now there's something that needs control! Lawyers!
...(no offense to any lawyers on the boards [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] )[/b][/quote]
seriously!!!
there haave been cases where a guy broke into a house, was shot (NOT killed) so he sued, and won the case...
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[b]whitestar90: [/b]"it would give the computer a heartattack just looking at it" -
[b]Sanfam: [/b]"And Drazi didn't like it one bit.-
[b]Mr.Bungle: [/b][i]"So that's where the forum went..."[/i]-
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[b][i]ahhh, the good old days of HTML.[/i][/b]
our right to bear arms is sitting right in the constitution. Why? for a simple reason. So in the event that the government got to big for it's breeches, the US citizens could fight for their rights.
my how times change eh? (You have to remember, back then, a gun was a gun, pure and simple...now we have artilery, planes, fully automatic weapons...etc soo..oh well)
still, even with all this crime, I don't think that right should be tampered with much. perhaps if you have a criminal record you can't own a gun again for X years, depending on what you did...but, I dunno.
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[b]whitestar90: [/b]"it would give the computer a heartattack just looking at it" -
[b]Sanfam: [/b]"And Drazi didn't like it one bit.-
[b]Mr.Bungle: [/b][i]"So that's where the forum went..."[/i]-
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[b][i]ahhh, the good old days of HTML.[/i][/b]
next you'll tell me that in a public revolt against the US govt properly trained people with properly registered and maintained firearms wouldnt use them in such a revolution ?
The so called 'right to bear arms' is outdated, precisely as you say Ahash. It was written in the era of black powder muzzle loading Besse's and Cannon, not autocannon. The ammendment was written so that cheap and easy to maintain civilian militias could remain active and easy to assemble, like the Minute men et al. This was when the US didnt have a regular military of any real strength or formalisation.
In the modern world such a concept is downright ludicrous. Guys armed with M-16's/Armalites and any other ad-lib weapons are at best are wormfood, against any serious modern military.
Therefore the only excuse to maintain the ammendment is so that the US citizenry is 'free' to keep weapons that vary from the tame and sensible to the flat out ****ing insane. Perhaps the laws have changed since I last looked but last I knew, if you're in the right US state and you are part of a club you can waltz into a gunstore and buy a nice brand new 5.56 General Electric minigun...
What pray tell can you use that for other than to give a dyed in the wool gun nut a raging hard-on ?
I also noticed that while I was in the States, when I was waiting out for buses, every gun magazine I picked up was bust decrying ANY change whatsoever to gun legislation. Not one offered any sort of positive change, no compromises or effective soloutions. Why ? Because the wider gun fraternity knows that they have it damned good, that the US has the most liberal gun laws in the world, if they keep quiet unless its to shout down anti-gun groups, they can maintain thier arsenals.
The moderate and sensible gun owners just quietly let the lead-heads go about thier shouting and don't say too much when they see drive-bys and bloody break-ins in the news. They are as much at fault as anyone. If they had the balls to pitch for sensible gun control themselves everyone would win. The hard part is accepting limitations and restrictions. That I can empathise with, as I've previously mentioned, due mainly to the actions of Martin Bryant we now have some of the most restrictive and even draconian gun laws here in AU. I know what it means to be denied things that I enjoy a great deal.
Something has got to give, the US will self destruct or become one big battlefield or the US will adopt sensible and sane gun laws, definitely not to the same extent we have here, but also denfintely much more than what is currently in place in the US.
Even given the current levels of hardware on the streets already, it has to start somewhere, attrition should, slowly but surely begin to account for the guns 'in service'.
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]The so called 'right to bear arms' is outdated... ...In the modern world such a concept is downright ludicrous.[/b][/quote]
No it's not. While I agree that there are now many classes of weapons available to the general public that should be severly restricted, the right to ownand use a firearm such as a hunting rifle, and yes even a pistol are not out dated by any means, especially in the outlying countryside.
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]The moderate and sensible gun owners just quietly let the lead-heads go about thier shouting and don't say too much when they see drive-bys and bloody break-ins in the news. They are as much at fault as anyone.[/b][/quote]
You're way off here. We bitch about the drive-bys as much as anyone else. Your idea of gun control only addresses the legitimate gun owner. When will people get that through their thick skulls? Laws don't govern, much less control, illegal and underground weapons and their users. Why should a gun club, association, or the average joe who owns a rifle or pistol be punished for the deeds of some crack head reject who kills a bunch of people? Why does he/she have to fear their own governments oppression for owning or having the desire to own a weapon for personal protection.
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]Something has got to give, the US will self destruct or become one big battlefield...
[/b][/quote]
The US was born in a battlefield, and much of our history has been determined by such. Revolution is nothing new. I don't think many of my fellow citizens feel guilty or embarrassed about it.
I'm tired of hearing these pacifistic ****s trying to tell everyone else how to live, get off you ****ing ass and worry about your own shit.
People bitch about losing their freedoms as time goes on, and so when they start to make a stand, then they get bitched at for making waves. Well, you know... It seems that we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't so why not go for the better choice?
I chose to keep my freedoms, even if I am not really a gun enthusiast. There's a reason we have a US and an Australia in the world.
Hey I agree, I've owned guns for most of my life and never has one of them jumped down off the wall and killed anyone!
I tend to think of it as my survival kit!
If the world go's to hell in a hand bag I still have a way to hunt up some dinner.
Or if my government thinks it's time to do something really stupid, ie; Decide that Hitler was right and start exterminating people, I have a was of saying NO!
Take the guns from the honest people and only the crimminals will have them!
There are also proven studies, Texas, that show if people are aloud to carry concealed weapons the crime rate drops.
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[b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
Sorry SB your really off base about the validity of irregular tactics in terms of a CIVIL INSURECTION. The kind of fighting that goes on in such a conflic will preclude the use of all the nifty "wiz bang" weaponry that we drew out in afghanistan, hell its the same reason why we didnt go anywhere near Kabul in Afghanistan, and why we are not going to do house to house fighting in bagdad. Even wonderous JDAM's are going to be restricted in usage because they are area effect weapons, and in a civil insurection if you start throwing that kind of hardware around all you end up doing is killing off your own support.
The best example of this thing is look at colomubia, despite all the throwing around of American and Columbian government nifty hardware, the commnuists are still there, and the only thing that seems to keep them in check are the equaly bloody irregular right wing militias. Fighting irregular forces in suburban/urban and built up terrain with your own non combatants in close proximity is a much different matter then being able to in the final analysis just tottaly write off a forign population as "acceptable casualties" so no cluster munitions, no "Daisy Cutters" and once you get rid of those things, things havent changed that much, heavy rifles will cut through field grade battle armor, and you cant use indirect fire for fear of your own non combatants, so you have to rely on old fashion soldiering skills, and that evens things up alot.
And Frankly SB, near as I can tell in australia your over all homicide rate has stayed equal irregardless of your laws against firearms, and all the concessions you talked about led to further consessions, eventualy I believe that Australia will completely remove firearms from private hands, and guess what? your murder rate STILL wont have changed! hell, its at 4.2 per 100,000 and thats 60% of the US national homicide rate.. And New South Wales by itself has a homicide rate equall that of most metropolitin areas in the US, being acording to your own governemnts 2000 statistics at 6.8 per hundered thousand, which puts in in line with similar sized states here in the US
Maybe there is somethinge else going on besides guns and the American "Gun Culture"
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 11-16-2002).]
[quote]Originally posted by JackN:
I'm tired of hearing these pacifistic ****s trying to tell everyone else how to live, get off you ****ing ass and worry about your own shit.[/B][/quote]
Pacifists don't survive unless they live in countries where other people are willing to shed their blood to protect the lives of the pacifists. The Quakers, Shakers etc are very lucky to be in the Untied States.
As for SB's comments my main objection to your 'properly registered…' comment is that if the government has your home address and a list of what guns you own and god forbid becomes evil, totalitarian, what ever, it becomes very easy to 'collect' when/if they want to. I can't stay awake 24/7 or have a prayer against guys in body armor and submachine guns coming to collect what I own, and would refuse to give up.
(I just watched a warrant get served on a house across the street at six in the morning last week. Scary stuff. The SWAT team was screaming on its blow horn "this is the [blank] police department, bla bla…". Their truck was parked in my driveway and there were like four black and whites in the street. For a second when I looked out the window I thought they were looking at my house!)
My question would by why are you so afraid of law-abiding citizens owning any type of gun? Criminals are going to get them anyway. My owning guns (a couple 'scary black guns' as a mater of fact) does you no harm. I have my own reasons for owning them that you couldn't understand sitting hundreds of miles away from me. Who are you to say I shouldn't be able to go have fun shooting them? I've never harmed a hair on an animal on purpose, let alone a human.
There is one other aspect about America that separates it from Australia and Great Britain with regards to the feasability of gun control: we're not surrounded by ocean. Our neighbor to the south doesn't have the same gun control laws as we do; guns are far more readily available and far cheaper to obtain in Mexico than they are anywhere in the US.
As a result: A friend of mine recently bought a pistol legally, paying all relevant taxes and so forth; the total came to several hundred dollars (can't recall the exact amount at the moment, nor the exact type of pistol). We later learned that the exact same gun, bought through the black market in Los Angeles (and therefore with no taxes or background checks in place) would have cost $80-$100. And it would have been available immediately, rather than having to wait however long is required by law. New gun control laws in the US won't make one bit of difference; the black market is already outselling legal gun vendors, precisely because it's cheaper, it's easier, and it's much harder to trace.
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We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
legislation is one thing, and important thing, but it's not the whole thrust of my posts. I started it yes, but were delving into technicalities, to me thats not the important thing. I duly recognise the gun stats posted, all true, valid, and off the mark. I've never once said it was right to deny people the 'PRIVLEDGE' of owning a gun. I said it was wrong to regard owning a firearm as a RIGHT. Please folks, note the difference.
As far as the black market goes... piffle. With a few calls and the right inclination I can pick up a .45 or a 9mm, though the price is much steeper.
Its the fundamental gun culture, the underlaying collective psyche in the US that bothers me, that stirs me to voice. Guns are one of the points of a much larger iceberg if you follow my metaphor.
Jack's inadvertently hit on another aspect...
The US being born 'in the crucible of battle'. Very noble, very patriotic, and I'm not for a second saying that that's a bad thing. More power to you for overthrowing your oppressors.
Answer me this though, a nation, three months sailing time from it's colonial masters, born from a loose collection of penal colonies found no reason to get upset, get ornery and 'bust loose'. Those same colonial masters as you had. Was it taxation and privation, or was it just bein' plain grumpy ?
Colonial Australia was hell, and we got precious little from the Crown, what made us any different ? Perhaps it was the land, we were too busy fighting and pushing back the hardwoods and the Malee, the thin mean soils, the Great Dividing Range and the relentless Summer...to fight the 'Redcoats'.
There's alot to be said for a fighting spirit, Aussie's have finished alot of fights other people have started, so don't doubt our courage, but we don't seem to have the innate 'ornery-ness' either ingrained or drummed into 'Yanks'.
You blokes always seem to be spoiling for a fight...
and when you fight with funs, it's no longer something both parties can walk away from, and perhaps even buy each other a conciliatory beer... one man is left standing, if luck holds, sometimes its a case of two caskets full of wasted life.
Gun Culture... having an intrenched need to have guns to fight both real and percieved threats to life, limb and property.
Stripped of mitigating circumstances, statistics and enshrined law, that's what it comes down to. The worst part is, it's self fulfilling, one citizen wants to defend himself, so his neighbour follows suit in a quiet arms race , till you have a nation of Colt and Smith and Wesson. People have guns, to defend themselves, from other people with guns.
~~~
Jack, don't ever label me personally as a Pacifist or I'll smack you betwixt the eyes, ( and then buy you a beer). [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
~~~
Moderation, Regulation and Education...
not,
Open slather, Do as you will, and Learn if you like
basically I agree with all your recants, with some technical exceptions...
watch this space[/b][/quote]
Man...I watched that space for FIVE HOURS...nothing happened! what are you trying to pull here!!?!?!? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/mad.gif[/img]
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[b]whitestar90: [/b]"it would give the computer a heartattack just looking at it" -
[b]Sanfam: [/b]"And Drazi didn't like it one bit.-
[b]Mr.Bungle: [/b][i]"So that's where the forum went..."[/i]-
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[b][i]ahhh, the good old days of HTML.[/i][/b]
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]I've never once said it was right to deny people the 'PRIVLEDGE' of owning a gun. I said it was wrong to regard owning a firearm as a RIGHT. Please folks, note the difference.
[/b][/quote]
What you call a PRIVLEDGE, we call a RIGHT by our very Constitution. That Australia grew up in a different manner is neither good or bad in my eyes, except that you would imprint your judgement of our ways based upon how it works for you.
I make NO apologies for wishing to retain my RIGHTS that have been held for hundreds of years in this country. I fear my governments gradual gain of oppressive control, over anything or label you might level at me. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]Its the fundamental gun culture, the underlaying collective psyche in the US that bothers me, that stirs me to voice. Guns are one of the points of a much larger iceberg if you follow my metaphor.[/b][/quote]
I don't buy this, and certainly don't agree with it. Even if you miraculously eliminated guns from the equation, you'd still have gangs oppressing with knives, baseball bats, add infinitum...
The problem is the lack of character and responsibility of the newer generations. The lack of concern and neighborly love.
Now... I certainly don't think that AK-47's and the like should be part of the legalized artillery of basic society, but the over reaction to the opposite end of the spectrum by eliminating our right to bear arms is simply another example of the government trying to control yet one more aspect of our lives.
And like it has been said before and more eloquently than I can, it's not the gun control laws that will fix the problem, it's the people who use them or chose not to use them to resolve a situation.
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]Jack's inadvertently hit on another aspect...
The US being born 'in the crucible of battle'. Very noble, very patriotic, and I'm not for a second saying that that's a bad thing. More power to you for overthrowing your oppressors.
[/b][/quote]
Yeah... And we may need to again the ways things are going...
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]Gun Culture... having an intrenched need to have guns to fight both real and percieved threats to life, limb and property.
[/b][/quote]
Due to our difference in interpretation of that label, I don't concider those who wish to own a gun as part of the gun culture. Those who are enthusiasts and collect more than one or two types as a hobby fall into that catagory in my opinion, and many others in the US.
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]Jack, don't ever label me personally as a Pacifist or I'll smack you betwixt the eyes, ( and then buy you a beer). [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
Better get the tab ready, cause I was talking about Pacifists in my own country mate! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
Well, I wasnt trying to incite a debate here (albeit a controlled one)... To address some of the issues.
1) I am pro-gun and pro-hunting. Our constitution was given to us as a document to last throughout the ages. It has worked so far, and a hell of a lot better than most others. Once we start messing around with it, what happens next? Do we alter freedom of speech next because we dont like the way the media operates? No. There is a reason that America is so successful. Its called the Constitution. (this isnt the only reason, by any means, but)
2) If you make it harder for people to legitimately get guns, how does this help cut down crime? The people that want to get guns illegally can still do it, without any problem. So what happens? The bad guys still have guns only now they don't have to worry about the good guys being on even ground with them.
3) Changing gun laws will have no good effect. I could say much more, but I am having trouble staying awake... Long weekend. Perhaps some more tommorow.
SB you ducked part of the issue, if it was all about america's "gun culture" Why is it in your more densly populated areas you have homicide rates approaching ours?
your rural areas have homicide rates as low as ours, Take Maryland outside of Balimore and the DC suburbs the murder rate is down to 1.2 per 100,000, and the murder rate in Montana is about 2 or 3 somewhere.
Its population density man! were like rats! to many of us in once place we go psycho.. Im waiting for data out of India and China, I think it will back up my tottaly unscientific theory, but hell, its more then guns, even without them the deaths are occuring, and in places without the "gun culture"
And once again, I reinterate the Homicide rate here is about 7.4 or so per 100,000, not 15 or a 100 per 100,000 which people seem to think it is.. In there are higher rates of assault in Europe then in the United States, and thefts are about equal.
Lets face it, people just suck [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
because in the cities, people are saturated in American 'pop culture', they have little concept of gun education, that you get almost by osmosis in the country...
Like I said to Jack in ICQ :
yeah... I'm justifiably proud of the way Aussies tend to handle conflict... in both world and local terms... but sadly it being warped to a degree by 'modern western/US paradigms...
yeah.. people suck, and its mostly out of ignorance. Most people living in Urban centres are all but completely insulated from the 'real world', very few know what guns really do...
American pop culture is not the same as those in the american shooting community, they are quite different, and actualy dont get along. You have to rember the people who produce what you see in american "pop culture" are actually fairly anti gun. Most of those who make the TV, Movies, News, many magazines and music belong to anti gun orginizations, they also profess to usualy being leftist, so perhaps what your seeing is the "gun hyseria" that they try to release having the opposit effect and glamarizing weapons..
And it looks like on average with the exception of Japan, homicide rates in major urban areas are fairly similiar, and dont tell me Japan doesnt deal with American cultural penetration..
Although things in Japan arent rosie, looks like those who would commit murder spend more time commiting suicide suicide rate often peeks over 15 per 100,000, in comparision in the US you have suicides and homcides combining for a rate the US is about 13 per 100,000 and Europe disturbingly in many places has similarly high suicide numbers, with climbing homicide trends.
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[B]America's collective psyche has some sort of unhealthy obsession with guns.[B][/quote]
Yeash, that's a very generalzied statemtent to make for a person who is opinionating from afar, but perhaps visited a few cities in a few states for short periods of time. Then again maybe I can understand that considering how your media probably loves to color the US.
Comments
I take my friends out the farm with me and teach them how to use firearms. I always emphasise saftey above all else, and I also insist that if any 'just lookers' come along, they learn atleast, how to make a loaded weapon, unloaded and safe. How to disable one quickly and easily.
Basically learning how to deal with guns because they are a part of life. Man will always have weapons of some description, everyone should know how to handle them even if only to know how to make them less dangerous to persons and property.
I freely admit I like to enjoy my 'inner redneck' and have fun wuth guns and I very much enjoy hunting.
What I detest is the 'home defence' league, who dream of one day being broken into so they have the excuse to shoot someone and others of similar ilk. While I'm sure Tyvar isnt prescibing gun violence, the free an easy availability of guns and the paranoia and 'urban combat' mentality which I see leanings of, really gives me pause for concern.
This is not a personal attack Tyvar, from the outside looking in you look perhaps quite a bit different to what you think.
In short, guns are cool. The general 'gun nut' attitude in the US, certainly, is not.
I guess you would have to be around the urban gangs who show no mercy, thought, or emotion, and are no better than animals to understand some of the 'paranoia'. I myself, and many of my female friends, are lightweights and wouldn't do well in a tussle of any kind against an oversized drug or steroid using lunatic. Not to many of them down under huh?
At any rate the majority of the time that a gun is pulled in self defense it isn't used, instead the perpetrator runs away to find a less armed victim.
Dreaming of one day shooting someone is one thing, just be carefull not to go too far in condemning the use of weapons in self-defense against rapists, thieves and murderers.
I do think calling it 'free and easy availability' to guns is a bit over the top.
[b]Pretty much anywhere outside of America in the Western world are low in guns, including Canada. I can't think of the last time a gun was used in a robbery around here. Even in Toronto, with 3.5 million people, gun violence is very low. Less than 80 murders a year if I recall correctly. So having one under the counter isn't really feasible. And I wouldn't shoot somebody anyways. Easier to hand over the money and hope for the best. Its all insured.[/b][/quote]
I agree about the shooting thing to an extent...
I would NOT shoot to kill, shoot his arm (The one thats holding the knife) or a kneecap off...then let the medical people treat him.
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[b]whitestar90: [/b]"it would give the computer a heartattack just looking at it" -
[b]Sanfam: [/b]"And Drazi didn't like it one bit.-
[b]Mr.Bungle: [/b][i]"So that's where the forum went..."[/i]-
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[b][i]ahhh, the good old days of HTML.[/i][/b]
[b]...shoot his arm (The one thats holding the knife) or a kneecap off...then let the medical people treat him.[/b][/quote]
yeah, and then get sued by his lawyer for it!
Now there's something that needs control! Lawyers!
...(no offense to any lawyers on the boards [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] )
To own a gun in Australia you must sit a weekend theory and practical firearms course costing about $125 US. You must wait 30 days before you can pick up a purchased firearm, and that includes the most innocous of BB guns and air rifles.
To own a pistol here you must be a sane member of a pistol shooting club, offically you are supposed to store your gun at the club and only take it home to 'clean and service it'. Fire it anywhere else and you are in deep shit.
The police have carte blanche as far as you keeping your guns, it's at thier disgression. If you have a pile of unpaid parking tickets and you get abusive... kiss your guns and your gun licence goobye in some cases. Any hint of mental instability from a medical professional about you and you are 'gun free' as well.
To use a pump action shotgun, semi-auto .22 rifle, or any self loading long arm for that matter, you need a sworn statement from a Justice of the Peace every calender year to obtain a C class licence.
After a recent pistol shooting here very soon you will only be able to own a pistol if you are a presecribed Olympic or Commonwealth Games pistol shooter...
Guns are available from perhaps 3 specific gun shops per million population, thats about sixty gun shops TOTAL for Australia. You can buy a pump shotgun at Walmart in the US, how many Walmarts are there ??
need I go on ?
The US has a completely and utterly statutory and deeply psychologically and culturally embedded gun culture. It served you well when you had Redcoats, Kodiaks, Venison and Turkey to shoot, when the ammendment the gun nuts hide behind, was written.
Somewhere between Australia's current Laws and those of the US, lays gun law Nirvarna.
As far as crack tooting, gun toting nuts go, you're right, you're ****ed with a gun in the mean streets of alot of US capitals.
Better go to Walmart and buy one.
Freedom is one thing, the right to bear arms is another.
Civilian firearms should be a frikkin Privledge, not an automatic right. If the US had been sensible about guns from the beginning, there wouldn't be as much gun related strife as there is now.
Far as I'm concerned, bring on the release of the capsicum paintball round for public use... and throw out any case where a felon is trying to sue for damages against his/her victim when these or any other non leathal weapon is used.
Paintballs in themselves hurt like hell and bruise up exposed skin very well, the dose of chemical irritant may just tilt the balance. H and K Heirstal in Germany have made a complete military grade piece to fire these, far as I'm concerned a hefty rebate on those would be a bloody good idea. Some of the good semi auto paintball guns carry hoppers of 250 rounds... plenty for under the counter spray and pray from an untrained defender.
In fact, bring on every conceivable form of non lethal, effective retaliatory weapon, and by effective, I mean a real possibility of coming off much better than a guy with a 'real' gun.
I also hope the advent of the Phaser will bring about a significant change in the 'battlefield'. It would be quite amusing to see an assailant cooked on a few hundred thousand volts and be chucked quivering into a black and white...
[b]while I wholeheartedly agree with firearms training, I disagree strongly with the kind of attitude Tyvar expresses along with it perhaps not overtly but its there just the same.
I take my friends out the farm with me and teach them how to use firearms. I always emphasise saftey above all else, and I also insist that if any 'just lookers' come along, they learn atleast, how to make a loaded weapon, unloaded and safe. How to disable one quickly and easily.
Basically learning how to deal with guns because they are a part of life. Man will always have weapons of some description, everyone should know how to handle them even if only to know how to make them less dangerous to persons and property.
I freely admit I like to enjoy my 'inner redneck' and have fun wuth guns and I very much enjoy hunting.
What I detest is the 'home defence' league, who dream of one day being broken into so they have the excuse to shoot someone and others of similar ilk. While I'm sure Tyvar isnt prescibing gun violence, the free an easy availability of guns and the paranoia and 'urban combat' mentality which I see leanings of, really gives me pause for concern.
This is not a personal attack Tyvar, from the outside looking in you look perhaps quite a bit different to what you think.
In short, guns are cool. The general 'gun nut' attitude in the US, certainly, is not.[/b][/quote]
I wouldnt consider the fairly intensive training courses I was detailing to be "gun nut" If your going to use a firearm for defense you better have been trained to near a professional level, or in the most dire circomstances, or else you put to many people at risk. The handgun and shotgun courses teach how to properly use a weapon in a self defense situation, and I believe the the depth and intensity of the courses is appropriate.
I did grow up an avid shooter, and I leared quite early that it would be best to be quite well trained in a self defense situation. I have a family of combat vets SB, I have had it explained to me quite well that shooting at cans, or even the occasional elk is a hell of alot different then when people are trying to kill you back, and the only way to deal with that succesfully is to have training of the level that your shooting habbits, once you draw the gun are by almost automatic reflex, and bypasses your fear and anxiety. And lastly even then you have to realize things just happen, Murphy's law and all. I do NOT take firearms defense frivously, but I have been educated by those much older, wiser and more experienced in these things then I am.
And for the record the SMG courses are availble only to those in law enforcement, all though they do have a carefully controlled program for civillians to shoot them, so that you can have the experience in a safe environment. I was joking about their pressence, Ive seen through a glass window those classes taking place, and it reinforces my belief that automatic weapons are only usefull in military applications for suppresive fire, most police even with 9mm SMGs seem to be relativly inaccurate with the things.
Sorry about the nasty tone and language errors, I wasnt quite awake when I wrote this, so I reacted a bit strongly.
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 11-15-2002).]
my comments relate directly to the ingrained gun culture present in the US, your comments gave away the underlying culture...
While I can make absolutely no claim to having any experience with genuine combat, I do know what you mean by reflexive unthinking shooting, and being well trained in taking those sorts of shots.
While bunnies dont mount SMG's, hunting them requires some real skill if you do a 'walk through', rabbits spring from around your feet often times, from the lays, and you have to be fast and slick to hit them, with pistol or shotgun.
Same applies in paintball, this time they shoot back. Then you learn about cover, about on the fly 'risk assessment' inside a tenth of a second and bringing a weapon to bear without so much as a thought.
From those experiences alone theres no way I want to be involved in a real firefight...
because with firearms, the difference between your life and 'theirs' is less than a blink of an eye...
The gun culture that you see reflected in TV, or certain "wanna be" magazines does not reflect the majority of gun owners in the united states.
Im sure your a fine man with your weapons and hunting rabbits isnt easy, Ive done it and I know how quick the little suckers can be. Then again elk for being large critters move awful quietly at times and blend in with their home well. hell Ive litteraly turned the corner around a path at the bottom of a ridge and come face to face a young bull, I wasnt sure which one of us was the most suprised. Also I wasn't attempting to cast dipersions on your firearms skills, what I was attemptin to do was counter the opinion that was prevalent here it is a simple matter to have a gun and deploy it, where as thats the farthest thing from the truth.
I have a similar shooting background as you do and what I was stating is that even with a healthy knowledge of shooting, the outcome of a confrontation is far from certain.
The concept of simply being able to shoot an attacker in the arm or leg is foolish, you dont have the time for such a shot, and its more difficult then TV/Movies or computer games make such things seem, MUCH more difficult, especialy with a handgun, under stress.
Sorry A# but your post actualy set my teeth on edge a bit, its too cavalier, and I think SB would be a bit more appropriate in critising it in view of his beliefs about the american gun culture then my posts [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
I know one thing, if you are in a situation where you must draw a gun, or any other lethal weapon you have one objective, the death of your target, if you believe other wise and attempt to do otherwise without being a profesional sniper/spec ops/SWAT guy, all you are doing is making it more likely you and other innocents will die. In fact most cops (except for the SWAT type snipers) are explicitly trained NOT to use such tactics.
By mentioning the training I was mentioning the criteria in which I would feel comfortable with myself or others praciticing concealled carry, the training is suitable for the police officers in my state and thus I deam it suitable for civilians as well in order to instruct them to be responsible in the use of leathal force.
[b] yeah, and then get sued by his lawyer for it!
Now there's something that needs control! Lawyers!
...(no offense to any lawyers on the boards [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] )[/b][/quote]
seriously!!!
there haave been cases where a guy broke into a house, was shot (NOT killed) so he sued, and won the case...
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[b]whitestar90: [/b]"it would give the computer a heartattack just looking at it" -
[b]Sanfam: [/b]"And Drazi didn't like it one bit.-
[b]Mr.Bungle: [/b][i]"So that's where the forum went..."[/i]-
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[b][i]ahhh, the good old days of HTML.[/i][/b]
my how times change eh? (You have to remember, back then, a gun was a gun, pure and simple...now we have artilery, planes, fully automatic weapons...etc soo..oh well)
still, even with all this crime, I don't think that right should be tampered with much. perhaps if you have a criminal record you can't own a gun again for X years, depending on what you did...but, I dunno.
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[b]whitestar90: [/b]"it would give the computer a heartattack just looking at it" -
[b]Sanfam: [/b]"And Drazi didn't like it one bit.-
[b]Mr.Bungle: [/b][i]"So that's where the forum went..."[/i]-
---
[b][i]ahhh, the good old days of HTML.[/i][/b]
Some where JUSTICE and been stolen and hidden inside the LAW! and it seriously sucks!
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[b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
The so called 'right to bear arms' is outdated, precisely as you say Ahash. It was written in the era of black powder muzzle loading Besse's and Cannon, not autocannon. The ammendment was written so that cheap and easy to maintain civilian militias could remain active and easy to assemble, like the Minute men et al. This was when the US didnt have a regular military of any real strength or formalisation.
In the modern world such a concept is downright ludicrous. Guys armed with M-16's/Armalites and any other ad-lib weapons are at best are wormfood, against any serious modern military.
Therefore the only excuse to maintain the ammendment is so that the US citizenry is 'free' to keep weapons that vary from the tame and sensible to the flat out ****ing insane. Perhaps the laws have changed since I last looked but last I knew, if you're in the right US state and you are part of a club you can waltz into a gunstore and buy a nice brand new 5.56 General Electric minigun...
What pray tell can you use that for other than to give a dyed in the wool gun nut a raging hard-on ?
I also noticed that while I was in the States, when I was waiting out for buses, every gun magazine I picked up was bust decrying ANY change whatsoever to gun legislation. Not one offered any sort of positive change, no compromises or effective soloutions. Why ? Because the wider gun fraternity knows that they have it damned good, that the US has the most liberal gun laws in the world, if they keep quiet unless its to shout down anti-gun groups, they can maintain thier arsenals.
The moderate and sensible gun owners just quietly let the lead-heads go about thier shouting and don't say too much when they see drive-bys and bloody break-ins in the news. They are as much at fault as anyone. If they had the balls to pitch for sensible gun control themselves everyone would win. The hard part is accepting limitations and restrictions. That I can empathise with, as I've previously mentioned, due mainly to the actions of Martin Bryant we now have some of the most restrictive and even draconian gun laws here in AU. I know what it means to be denied things that I enjoy a great deal.
Something has got to give, the US will self destruct or become one big battlefield or the US will adopt sensible and sane gun laws, definitely not to the same extent we have here, but also denfintely much more than what is currently in place in the US.
Even given the current levels of hardware on the streets already, it has to start somewhere, attrition should, slowly but surely begin to account for the guns 'in service'.
[b]The so called 'right to bear arms' is outdated... ...In the modern world such a concept is downright ludicrous.[/b][/quote]
No it's not. While I agree that there are now many classes of weapons available to the general public that should be severly restricted, the right to ownand use a firearm such as a hunting rifle, and yes even a pistol are not out dated by any means, especially in the outlying countryside.
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]The moderate and sensible gun owners just quietly let the lead-heads go about thier shouting and don't say too much when they see drive-bys and bloody break-ins in the news. They are as much at fault as anyone.[/b][/quote]
You're way off here. We bitch about the drive-bys as much as anyone else. Your idea of gun control only addresses the legitimate gun owner. When will people get that through their thick skulls? Laws don't govern, much less control, illegal and underground weapons and their users. Why should a gun club, association, or the average joe who owns a rifle or pistol be punished for the deeds of some crack head reject who kills a bunch of people? Why does he/she have to fear their own governments oppression for owning or having the desire to own a weapon for personal protection.
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]Something has got to give, the US will self destruct or become one big battlefield...
[/b][/quote]
The US was born in a battlefield, and much of our history has been determined by such. Revolution is nothing new. I don't think many of my fellow citizens feel guilty or embarrassed about it.
I'm tired of hearing these pacifistic ****s trying to tell everyone else how to live, get off you ****ing ass and worry about your own shit.
People bitch about losing their freedoms as time goes on, and so when they start to make a stand, then they get bitched at for making waves. Well, you know... It seems that we're damned if we do, and damned if we don't so why not go for the better choice?
I chose to keep my freedoms, even if I am not really a gun enthusiast. There's a reason we have a US and an Australia in the world.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
If you don't like the fact that we value our guns over here, stay home!
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
I tend to think of it as my survival kit!
If the world go's to hell in a hand bag I still have a way to hunt up some dinner.
Or if my government thinks it's time to do something really stupid, ie; Decide that Hitler was right and start exterminating people, I have a was of saying NO!
Take the guns from the honest people and only the crimminals will have them!
There are also proven studies, Texas, that show if people are aloud to carry concealed weapons the crime rate drops.
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[b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
The best example of this thing is look at colomubia, despite all the throwing around of American and Columbian government nifty hardware, the commnuists are still there, and the only thing that seems to keep them in check are the equaly bloody irregular right wing militias. Fighting irregular forces in suburban/urban and built up terrain with your own non combatants in close proximity is a much different matter then being able to in the final analysis just tottaly write off a forign population as "acceptable casualties" so no cluster munitions, no "Daisy Cutters" and once you get rid of those things, things havent changed that much, heavy rifles will cut through field grade battle armor, and you cant use indirect fire for fear of your own non combatants, so you have to rely on old fashion soldiering skills, and that evens things up alot.
And Frankly SB, near as I can tell in australia your over all homicide rate has stayed equal irregardless of your laws against firearms, and all the concessions you talked about led to further consessions, eventualy I believe that Australia will completely remove firearms from private hands, and guess what? your murder rate STILL wont have changed! hell, its at 4.2 per 100,000 and thats 60% of the US national homicide rate.. And New South Wales by itself has a homicide rate equall that of most metropolitin areas in the US, being acording to your own governemnts 2000 statistics at 6.8 per hundered thousand, which puts in in line with similar sized states here in the US
Maybe there is somethinge else going on besides guns and the American "Gun Culture"
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 11-16-2002).]
10 yard penalty for the use of facts in an internet debate [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
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bobo
<*>
B5:ITF
I'm tired of hearing these pacifistic ****s trying to tell everyone else how to live, get off you ****ing ass and worry about your own shit.[/B][/quote]
Pacifists don't survive unless they live in countries where other people are willing to shed their blood to protect the lives of the pacifists. The Quakers, Shakers etc are very lucky to be in the Untied States.
As for SB's comments my main objection to your 'properly registered…' comment is that if the government has your home address and a list of what guns you own and god forbid becomes evil, totalitarian, what ever, it becomes very easy to 'collect' when/if they want to. I can't stay awake 24/7 or have a prayer against guys in body armor and submachine guns coming to collect what I own, and would refuse to give up.
(I just watched a warrant get served on a house across the street at six in the morning last week. Scary stuff. The SWAT team was screaming on its blow horn "this is the [blank] police department, bla bla…". Their truck was parked in my driveway and there were like four black and whites in the street. For a second when I looked out the window I thought they were looking at my house!)
My question would by why are you so afraid of law-abiding citizens owning any type of gun? Criminals are going to get them anyway. My owning guns (a couple 'scary black guns' as a mater of fact) does you no harm. I have my own reasons for owning them that you couldn't understand sitting hundreds of miles away from me. Who are you to say I shouldn't be able to go have fun shooting them? I've never harmed a hair on an animal on purpose, let alone a human.
cant talk. woman waiting.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
basically I agree with all your recants, with some technical exceptions...
watch this space
As a result: A friend of mine recently bought a pistol legally, paying all relevant taxes and so forth; the total came to several hundred dollars (can't recall the exact amount at the moment, nor the exact type of pistol). We later learned that the exact same gun, bought through the black market in Los Angeles (and therefore with no taxes or background checks in place) would have cost $80-$100. And it would have been available immediately, rather than having to wait however long is required by law. New gun control laws in the US won't make one bit of difference; the black market is already outselling legal gun vendors, precisely because it's cheaper, it's easier, and it's much harder to trace.
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We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
As far as the black market goes... piffle. With a few calls and the right inclination I can pick up a .45 or a 9mm, though the price is much steeper.
Its the fundamental gun culture, the underlaying collective psyche in the US that bothers me, that stirs me to voice. Guns are one of the points of a much larger iceberg if you follow my metaphor.
Jack's inadvertently hit on another aspect...
The US being born 'in the crucible of battle'. Very noble, very patriotic, and I'm not for a second saying that that's a bad thing. More power to you for overthrowing your oppressors.
Answer me this though, a nation, three months sailing time from it's colonial masters, born from a loose collection of penal colonies found no reason to get upset, get ornery and 'bust loose'. Those same colonial masters as you had. Was it taxation and privation, or was it just bein' plain grumpy ?
Colonial Australia was hell, and we got precious little from the Crown, what made us any different ? Perhaps it was the land, we were too busy fighting and pushing back the hardwoods and the Malee, the thin mean soils, the Great Dividing Range and the relentless Summer...to fight the 'Redcoats'.
There's alot to be said for a fighting spirit, Aussie's have finished alot of fights other people have started, so don't doubt our courage, but we don't seem to have the innate 'ornery-ness' either ingrained or drummed into 'Yanks'.
You blokes always seem to be spoiling for a fight...
and when you fight with funs, it's no longer something both parties can walk away from, and perhaps even buy each other a conciliatory beer... one man is left standing, if luck holds, sometimes its a case of two caskets full of wasted life.
Gun Culture... having an intrenched need to have guns to fight both real and percieved threats to life, limb and property.
Stripped of mitigating circumstances, statistics and enshrined law, that's what it comes down to. The worst part is, it's self fulfilling, one citizen wants to defend himself, so his neighbour follows suit in a quiet arms race , till you have a nation of Colt and Smith and Wesson. People have guns, to defend themselves, from other people with guns.
~~~
Jack, don't ever label me personally as a Pacifist or I'll smack you betwixt the eyes, ( and then buy you a beer). [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
~~~
Moderation, Regulation and Education...
not,
Open slather, Do as you will, and Learn if you like
nor...
Prohibition, Penalisation and Ignorance.
[b]points missed in several areas...
cant talk. woman waiting.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
basically I agree with all your recants, with some technical exceptions...
watch this space[/b][/quote]
Man...I watched that space for FIVE HOURS...nothing happened! what are you trying to pull here!!?!?!? [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/mad.gif[/img]
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
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[b]whitestar90: [/b]"it would give the computer a heartattack just looking at it" -
[b]Sanfam: [/b]"And Drazi didn't like it one bit.-
[b]Mr.Bungle: [/b][i]"So that's where the forum went..."[/i]-
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[b][i]ahhh, the good old days of HTML.[/i][/b]
[b]I've never once said it was right to deny people the 'PRIVLEDGE' of owning a gun. I said it was wrong to regard owning a firearm as a RIGHT. Please folks, note the difference.
[/b][/quote]
What you call a PRIVLEDGE, we call a RIGHT by our very Constitution. That Australia grew up in a different manner is neither good or bad in my eyes, except that you would imprint your judgement of our ways based upon how it works for you.
I make NO apologies for wishing to retain my RIGHTS that have been held for hundreds of years in this country. I fear my governments gradual gain of oppressive control, over anything or label you might level at me. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]Its the fundamental gun culture, the underlaying collective psyche in the US that bothers me, that stirs me to voice. Guns are one of the points of a much larger iceberg if you follow my metaphor.[/b][/quote]
I don't buy this, and certainly don't agree with it. Even if you miraculously eliminated guns from the equation, you'd still have gangs oppressing with knives, baseball bats, add infinitum...
The problem is the lack of character and responsibility of the newer generations. The lack of concern and neighborly love.
Now... I certainly don't think that AK-47's and the like should be part of the legalized artillery of basic society, but the over reaction to the opposite end of the spectrum by eliminating our right to bear arms is simply another example of the government trying to control yet one more aspect of our lives.
And like it has been said before and more eloquently than I can, it's not the gun control laws that will fix the problem, it's the people who use them or chose not to use them to resolve a situation.
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]Jack's inadvertently hit on another aspect...
The US being born 'in the crucible of battle'. Very noble, very patriotic, and I'm not for a second saying that that's a bad thing. More power to you for overthrowing your oppressors.
[/b][/quote]
Yeah... And we may need to again the ways things are going...
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]Gun Culture... having an intrenched need to have guns to fight both real and percieved threats to life, limb and property.
[/b][/quote]
Due to our difference in interpretation of that label, I don't concider those who wish to own a gun as part of the gun culture. Those who are enthusiasts and collect more than one or two types as a hobby fall into that catagory in my opinion, and many others in the US.
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]Jack, don't ever label me personally as a Pacifist or I'll smack you betwixt the eyes, ( and then buy you a beer). [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
[/b][/quote]
Better get the tab ready, cause I was talking about Pacifists in my own country mate! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
1) I am pro-gun and pro-hunting. Our constitution was given to us as a document to last throughout the ages. It has worked so far, and a hell of a lot better than most others. Once we start messing around with it, what happens next? Do we alter freedom of speech next because we dont like the way the media operates? No. There is a reason that America is so successful. Its called the Constitution. (this isnt the only reason, by any means, but)
2) If you make it harder for people to legitimately get guns, how does this help cut down crime? The people that want to get guns illegally can still do it, without any problem. So what happens? The bad guys still have guns only now they don't have to worry about the good guys being on even ground with them.
3) Changing gun laws will have no good effect. I could say much more, but I am having trouble staying awake... Long weekend. Perhaps some more tommorow.
your rural areas have homicide rates as low as ours, Take Maryland outside of Balimore and the DC suburbs the murder rate is down to 1.2 per 100,000, and the murder rate in Montana is about 2 or 3 somewhere.
Its population density man! were like rats! to many of us in once place we go psycho.. Im waiting for data out of India and China, I think it will back up my tottaly unscientific theory, but hell, its more then guns, even without them the deaths are occuring, and in places without the "gun culture"
And once again, I reinterate the Homicide rate here is about 7.4 or so per 100,000, not 15 or a 100 per 100,000 which people seem to think it is.. In there are higher rates of assault in Europe then in the United States, and thefts are about equal.
Lets face it, people just suck [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
Like I said to Jack in ICQ :
yeah... I'm justifiably proud of the way Aussies tend to handle conflict... in both world and local terms... but sadly it being warped to a degree by 'modern western/US paradigms...
yeah.. people suck, and its mostly out of ignorance. Most people living in Urban centres are all but completely insulated from the 'real world', very few know what guns really do...
And it looks like on average with the exception of Japan, homicide rates in major urban areas are fairly similiar, and dont tell me Japan doesnt deal with American cultural penetration..
Although things in Japan arent rosie, looks like those who would commit murder spend more time commiting suicide suicide rate often peeks over 15 per 100,000, in comparision in the US you have suicides and homcides combining for a rate the US is about 13 per 100,000 and Europe disturbingly in many places has similarly high suicide numbers, with climbing homicide trends.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
America's collective psyche has some sort of unhealthy obsession with guns.
and yeah... like I said in other posts...
raze Hollywood,
Nuke Rupert Murdoch, CNN, PBL... etc etc etc...
TV and radio are heroin for eyes and ears.
[B]America's collective psyche has some sort of unhealthy obsession with guns.[B][/quote]
Yeash, that's a very generalzied statemtent to make for a person who is opinionating from afar, but perhaps visited a few cities in a few states for short periods of time. Then again maybe I can understand that considering how your media probably loves to color the US.