Is there such a thing as a Moderate Muslim ?

shadow boxer · November 2002

If so I'd like to meet a few, right now, with what exposure I have to the Muslim faith, leads me to believe that there's no such thing as a gentle Muslim...
[url="http://uk.news.yahoo.com/021123/80/dfc2e.html"]http://uk.news.yahoo.com/021123/80/dfc2e.html[/url]

That's just flat out crazy.

Messiah · November 2002

I have a few muslim friends, who are very moderate. One of them is even atheistic.

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Talk is silver, but violence is gold.

Alec M · November 2002

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer God than you do. When you can understand why you dismiss all of the other possible Gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

- Stephan Roberts

I too have met a few Muslims who are excellent people. Most of them were either born in North America or had been living here a very long time however.

Remember though that it's always the smallest minorities which have the loudest voices.

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[url="http://www.alecm.com/"]Alec McClymont[/url]
"Something is only impossible until it's not."

Biggles · November 2002

I know quite a few, and they are all moderate people.

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[url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Never eat anything bigger than your own head.[/url]
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras

A2597 · November 2002

From what I've seen, the ones that have lived in the US are indeed much more moderate, definetly Americans in outlook. It just seems that the ones that live in the Palestinian area (Ala the middle east) are much more radical...(I don't think they all are, just the vast majority).

but I do have some frinds that are Muslim, in descent if not in faith.

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[b]whitestar90: [/b]"it would give the computer a heartattack just looking at it" -
[b]Sanfam: [/b]"And Drazi didn't like it one bit.-
[b]Mr.Bungle: [/b][i]"So that's where the forum went..."[/i]-
---
[b][i]ahhh, the good old days of HTML.[/i][/b]

[This message has been edited by A2597 (edited 11-24-2002).]

Jambo · November 2002

What do you mean by "in decent if not in faith"?

Jambo · November 2002

And "the ones that live in the Palestinian area" have a right to be pissed off, I know I would be.

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The Pope owns 51% of General Motors,
And the stock exchange is the only thing he's qualified to quote us

JackN · November 2002

[quote]-- followed a third day of Muslim-Christian blood-letting in Kaduna...[/quote]

I doubt real Muslim's or Christians in heart and spirit would view killing and looting as a religious right... *shaking my head*

[quote]The rioting began on Wednesday as a protest against an article in a national newspaper that offended Muslims because it said the Prophet Mohammad would have married one of the Miss World beauty queens were he alive today...

...Although Nigeria's [b][i]This Day[/i][/b] newspaper apologised for running the offending November 16th article, the newspaper said its Saturday edition editor [b][i]Simon Kolawole[/i][/b] was arrested on Friday.
[/quote]

Give that guy the Darwin award! Stupid!

On a side note though, there's one of those American rights that we hold precious Shadow Boxer! Free Speech! (No matter how stupid the particular speech is) [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]

Bekenn · November 2002

Jambo: I believe the word he meant was "descent," not "decent." Entirely different meaning.

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We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!

shadow boxer · November 2002

Jack - I've never once said a damned thing about the right of free speech.

I've explained at length my thoughts about the 'right'(privledge) of bearing arms.

I read the news, mostly from Reuters, and anything else I can find thats credible.

I've voiced a concern that as far as 'deaths related to ideaology/religious beliefs, Muslims seem to be way up there in the body count.

That of course does not say that other sorts of religious faith have not caused deaths either. (the Crusades, dated yes, but carnage none the less), Next you'll tell me that there have been squillions of deaths in Buhhdist clashes somewhere.

Are you happy now ? Should I have to justify and qualify absoferkinlutely everything I say ?

In short, NEVER call me stupid.

I'm not...

...and I take great umbrage at being call stupid.

A2597 · November 2002

[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]

In short, NEVER call me stupid.

I'm not...

...and I take great umbrage at being call stupid.[/b][/quote]

LMAO! I'm SOOO Sorry! But I find this hilarious!!!

Read Jacks message again, he wasn't talking about you. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img] (Unless you happened to be the editor of that particular newspaper...)

*Walks away chuckling*

oh, and thanks Bekenn for clarifying that for me...(My spelling stinks, I know that....I knew I had it wrong but couldn't figure it out...and was to lazy to grab a dictionary)

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[b]whitestar90: [/b]"it would give the computer a heartattack just looking at it" -
[b]Sanfam: [/b]"And Drazi didn't like it one bit.-
[b]Mr.Bungle: [/b][i]"So that's where the forum went..."[/i]-
---
[b][i]ahhh, the good old days of HTML.[/i][/b]

Captain,Simmonds · November 2002

I should note that there are differnt types of Islamic beliefs systems.

AnlaShok · November 2002

I recently worked with a muslim who moved here from Pakistan. He was disgusted by the WTC attacks and the behavior of people like Hussein and Bin Laden. As for the role his religion played in the attacks: "It's all politics."

I've worked with several people of the Islamic faith. None of them were extemists nor looked down upon anyone else for their difference in beliefs.

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AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"

JackN · November 2002

[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]Are you happy now ? Should I have to justify and qualify absoferkinlutely everything I say ?

In short, NEVER call me stupid.

I'm not...

...and I take great umbrage at being call stupid.[/b][/quote]

Come on Craeg! Get with the program, do I have to spell out each and every damn letter of my posts?

ok, I will... I was calling the editor of that Newspaper an idiot. The Free Speech part was simply an observation I was sharing with you. That guy got arrested for saying what he did, and although I think there are times when it would be fitting for some in the American press and media to be tossed into the joint, I am glad I live in a country where that itself isn't legal.

Do you expect me to dis you or something everytime I post? I can if you want, but it's not my plan. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]

Take the Blue pill this time, the Red one is too much trouble... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]

Mr_Bungle · November 2002

I know a great many Muslims - the place where I come from, Bradford, has a huge diversity of ethnic populations, and is one of the most culturally diverse cities in the UK (even allowing for the fact that half the ethnic groups aren't talking to one another, at any given time [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/tongue.gif[/img] ).

Are they moderate? Yes, for the most part. You get your extremists - but fundamentalism (a term coined by 'radical' American Protestants in the early 20th Century, FYI) is a part and parcel of modern religious thinking. Run a search for the secularisation thesis - potentially, fundamentalism is simply a religious response to modernism and the rise of secularisation in society; religion is no longer general, and all-encompassing. Fundamentalism is when people simply fall back on their beliefs, literally interpreted, in the face of such social change. You get a more radical body, as a result.

Mind you, if you're asking about the Muslims, why not turn the gaze inward - how about the rise of the Christian right in the US? Apparently 25% of the US population is currently enjoying a 'born again' relationship with God; I prefer the figures with a lower percentage, but either way it's a good chunk of the population, and the Christian fundamentalists remain a well-funded group in US politics.

Mr_Bungle · November 2002

You might also run a search for the anti-homosexual and and abortion lobbies as well - just as a counter to the unrest regarding the Miss World contest.

It's amazing what some people will get worked up at, all in the name of belief [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]

Freejack · November 2002

Though I know few people who are an of an Islamic faith, I speculate that the violence we see commited in the name of Islam has more to do with class and weath than religous convictions. I believe that if there was more social and economic equality among those in the arab worlds as compared to the US, the would be little of this religous terrorism to be worried about.

Also we cannot ignore those who fan the flames of this resentment such as radical clerics and, and people such as Osama, who use this anger to advancement of there own power.

It is especially sad to hear of a 16 year old suicide bomber, for at that age you cannot see the big picture, nor are you really able to make life and death decisions at that age.

Jake

Alec M · November 2002

There's something telling about the events of the past week. As the Muslims in Nigeria started killing people over a fashion show, the western world launched another Space Shuttle to continue construction of our Internation Space Station.

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[url="http://www.alecm.com/"]Alec McClymont[/url]
"Something is only impossible until it's not."

Tyvar · November 2002

Im sorry Jake.. BUT THATS BULLSHIT

Alright, look at the violence in Kanduna, this is the THIRD round of it, frankly in sub saharan africa the muslims have been butchering the christians and nobody has said word one about it.. Its not about money. Its not about class, in many of the african nations the Muslims ARE the high economic class.

Im afraid many people have been sold a bill of goods as to whats going on, and dont realize that the people that are putting out this information have their own power agenda, and if you look closely you might find that they are not who they pretend to be.

The Israeli/Palastininan conflict is one small slice of fighting in a conflict that has ranged over 1200 years from France to China And Russia down to the Congo and every place in between.

Hell the bomb in Bali was two fold, it was designed to kill westerners and to keep the native Balian Budhists down

22 churches in the first day or so of righting burned plus this is on top of past years of bloodshet where the Christan population of Nigeria has been being butchered they finaly snapped and fought back? can you blame THEM? hell no, I wish somebody would ship them more weapons.

The Sudanese keep snipping at Eithopia because the old imperial ethopians were the only christian state in the world to keep the islamic powers mostly at bay for a millenia of attacks and invasions.

Maybe some others should take off their blinders. This thing is sooo much older then colonialism, or even the crusades (which had their own cause, the closing off of the holy land, execution of pilgrims and such, plus constant turkish rading)

[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 11-25-2002).]

AnlaShok · November 2002

This is why Hitler loved religion so much. You can convince people with logic, but when you manipulate their beliefs, they fall into line so much more easily. This is why the rise of the Religious Right in the US has me so worried.

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AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"

Canuck · November 2002

I know a couple people from Palestine and a about three or four that are from Isreal, all practicing Muslims, and they are 'moderate'. And by from, I do mean that they just arrived in North America for schooling...

There are a LOT of peace loving, decent, 'moderate, or gentle Muslims out there... but the 'news' has no reason to show anything about them. Wouldn't grab ratings.

A2597 · November 2002

[quote]Originally posted by AnlaShok:
[b] This is why the rise of the Religious Right in the US has me so worried.

[/b][/quote]

RISE? I've seen no rise...a sharp decrease is more like it!
tell me...do you ever go out? or is your only source of information "Democrat Daily" ?

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[b]whitestar90: [/b]"it would give the computer a heartattack just looking at it" -
[b]Sanfam: [/b]"And Drazi didn't like it one bit.-
[b]Mr.Bungle: [/b][i]"So that's where the forum went..."[/i]-
---
[b][i]ahhh, the good old days of HTML.[/i][/b]

Mr_Bungle · November 2002

Slade, you are aware that a great number of the deaths in the recent troubles in Nigeria were caused by Christian mobs in a religiously-inspired backlash to Muslim attempts to throw a spanner in the works of the Miss World event?

The Christians saw the damage to the event as a major victory for the Islamic faith and took their anger to the streets; ideology once again getting in the way of common sense and basic humanity.

I guess not - maybe, in future, you should actually try and pick the news up as it comes in; not simply the headlines.

A2597 · November 2002

I never heard about Christan mobs celebrating that...

there certainly wern't any over here, I have a hard time seeing true follewers of the christan faith celebrating the deaths of 200 people.

link to article please?

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[b]whitestar90: [/b]"it would give the computer a heartattack just looking at it" -
[b]Sanfam: [/b]"And Drazi didn't like it one bit.-
[b]Mr.Bungle: [/b][i]"So that's where the forum went..."[/i]-
---
[b][i]ahhh, the good old days of HTML.[/i][/b]

JackN · November 2002

[quote]Originally posted by A2597:
[b]...I have a hard time seeing true follewers of the christan faith celebrating the deaths of 200 people.

[/b][/quote]

See... that's my point... And I include muslims too... Anyone with a real sense of FAITH wouldn't conceive of killing or rejoicing over killing, much less murderous killing.

Someone above said they are afraid of the Religious RIZGHT? Hell I'm more worried about the media and press, and the people who read and believe [b][i]IT[/i][/b] as scripture.

Tyvar · November 2002

Ahem the violence DID start with muslim protest mobs, most of the dead this time are muslim however, when the Christians took to the streets, 22 churches were burned along with 8 mosques..

Plus you have to understand Nigerian history, the past 20 years has seen severe persecution of christians by muslims and the slow universal imposition of sharia law on non muslims..

Canuck · November 2002

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

AnlaShok · November 2002

[quote]Originally posted by A2597:
[b] RISE? I've seen no rise...a sharp decrease is more like it!
tell me...do you ever go out? or is your only source of information "Democrat Daily" ?

[/b][/quote]

I guess you're only source of news would be Rush Limbaugh and/or the 700 Club?

The religious right has gotten control of the Republican party. The faith-based programs that are being pushed are a clear violation of the Constitution, but they look like they're going to be instituted anyway.

Fundamentalism is rising again. Fear it.

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AnlaShok, Captain of the Gray Hand of Fate Squadron
Sidhe-1
Wielder of the Big Heavy Hammer of Obvious Truth
"FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!"

Alec M · November 2002

The Muslim population began the riots, with the Christians entering afterwards, according to the various reports I've read. In addition, the author of the original article has now been sentenced to death by the Muslim courts in Nigeria.

Yeah, it was all the Christians' fault, sure.

The whole thing started because a good deal of the Muslim religion requires intolerance, especially of those who believe it so strongly. Treating women as if they are livestock, public beheading of homosexuals, destruction of artworks because they portray the human figure? Are these the ways of a civilized society?

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[url="http://www.alecm.com/"]Alec McClymont[/url]
"Something is only impossible until it's not."

Bekenn · November 2002

Ah, frell, not that stupid song again.... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]

AnlaShok: I think you and a few others have an overstated view of the importance or numbers of the "religious right," as they put it. There are extremists, sure, but those who want to ban Harry Potter or think that the terrorist attacks on 9/11 were successful because of the rise of acceptance of homosexuality simply don't have the power or numbers that you seem to attribute to them; more commonly, they are embarrassments to conservatives. They make the news precisely because their views are so extreme, not because they have any great deal of influence.

The same thing happens on the left; consider, for instance, the movement a while back to institute reparations from the white portion of our population to the black portion for slavery -- they made the news because their proposition was so extreme, not because they had any real influence.

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We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!

Canuck · November 2002

note to Slade... that Muslim religion IS very tolerant, howeverm extremists bend it to what they want. That happens with Catholicism and Christianity (look that the KKK) and any other religion.

And a lot of the things you listed were done by the Taliban government... not by the Muslim religion...

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