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Imagine ?

ArgoneArgone Genuine Klingon
Could you imagine where and what the human race could be and do if we didn't spend most of our time trying to destroy each other?

Governments worked for the betterment of their people and worked together to get all people fed and taken care of.

Schooling and college was free and they rewarded free thinkers! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/eek.gif[/img]



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[b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
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Comments

  • No where better then where we are now.

    A balance between struggle and peace is what it's all about.
  • ArgoneArgone Genuine Klingon
    A combination of Shadow and Vorlon, you think we must struggle amongst ourselves that we would not have enough struggles with every thing that needs done?

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    [b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
  • Random ChaosRandom Chaos Actually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
    I don't know. A lot of scientific research comes from military grants.
  • BekennBekenn Sinclair's Duck
    Difference breeds conflict. The only way to avoid conflict is to have everyone be exactly the same. It would be a stagnant society. No, thanks.

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    We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
  • Hmm....
    In some places Schooling and Colleges and health care are covered by Goverment. But you end up with High Taxes and a Small Miltary, and Been Call a Pile of Free loaders for having a Small Miltary.

    (I came close to getting into a rant there)


    [This message has been edited by Captain,Simmonds (edited 11-17-2002).]
  • PJHPJH The Lovely Thing
    I don't know, but I do know, that if all the people in the world wanted and acted accordingly (like they in fact should!), all the major issues in the world (like wars, food issues, medical issues, educational issues, economy issues etc. etc.) could be fixed just like that. Excluding only things which are beyond our will and knowledge, like for example some forms of cancer, AIDS etc.

    But a large majority of the worlds population are poor, don't have enough food, health care is non-existent, have no decent education etc. while small percent has everything more than they need.

    That itself tells a lot about the human race and the society.

    - PJH
  • TyvarTyvar Next best thing to a St. Bernard
    Not enough to go around, and who's willing to sacrifice?

    You want to feed the hungry and take care of the poor, something has to go.. probably our home PC's and the internet, it is in that view a waste of resources.

    If the US reallocated its entire military budget, alot of it would disapear into taking care of the 3-4 maybe even 5 or even more (depending on the inter related nature of the economy is) we just put out of work.

    Im not a Utopianist, I dont believe one can ever exist, becase some sick SOB will want something he cant have.. be it property, or maybe even romantic love, or appreciation for something that he isnt that good at (If hitler would have found somebody to sponsor his art, or maybe a wife, perhaps he never would have created the riche)

    Again, Im kinda cynical like the donkey Benjamin in Animal Farm, no matter who you put in charge, things are going to stay the same.
  • RhettRhett (Not even a monkey)
    [quote]Originally posted by Tyvar:
    [b] Again, Im kinda cynical like the donkey Benjamin in Animal Farm, no matter who you put in charge, things are going to stay the same.[/b][/quote]

    Good book, one of my favorites (including Orwell's 1984 and Huxley's A Brave New World)
  • ArgoneArgone Genuine Klingon
    The problem is everyone here is still thinking along the lines of a monetary system!

    Why? Do we really need a monetary system?

    If we knew the world was going to be destroyed in 25 years and their was another planet we could go to do you think they would worry about the cost?

    Doesn't everyone have the right to be educated no matter the cost?

    Do away with the monetary system and change the world!


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    [b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
  • No thanks, we gave up bartering long ago, thank goodness. I can't handle swapping two thousand rolls of toliet paper for a tank full of gas. Of course the person behind me will try to pay for thier gas in Perrier bottles... How many Perrier bottles equals 2000 rolls of toliet paper? What will the gas station do with 2000 rolls of toliet paper and several cases or Perrier? What if someone shows up with Pelagreno?

    If your going to suggest the free for all aproach where you take what you need and give what you can, great, start working hard to make up for me slacking off because while I work hard now the first time I see a a person freeloading I'm jumping on that bandwagon. That might sound terrible, but I'm willing to accept that I'm still not much, if any, better than an animal.
  • TyvarTyvar Next best thing to a St. Bernard
    No Im not thinking in Money Argone, Im thinking in MATERIAL, steel, silcon, petroleum..

    currently we just dont produce enough to give everybody the same things, so then how do you determine who gets some things and who doesnt?, or do you just eliminate some classes of things entirely?
  • croxiscroxis I am the walrus
    You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one....
  • Alec MAlec M Award Winning Poster
    A moneyless system is possible if production of goods costs nothing in the first place. Star Trek example:

    1) Fusion energy. Limitless, clean supply of power.
    2) Replicators. Industrial and "consumer" replicators provide everything from steel to chocolate ice cream. All powered by the previously mentioned fusion power source.

    This way, I can have as many cars as I want, provided I have a place to put them. Advancement in the Star Trek world is *supposed* to depend on one's educational and personal achievements, not on one's money.

    That's the theory anyways.

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    [url="http://www.alecm.com/"]Alec McClymont[/url]
    "Something is only impossible until it's not."
  • BekennBekenn Sinclair's Duck
    Croxis: Every time I hear that song, I want to throttle the singer/songwriter.

    Why? Because of this bit:

    [quote]
    Just think of all the people
    Living for today....
    [/quote]

    Erm, excuse me... this is supposed to be [i]desirable[/i]?? No! That would be [b]horrible[/b]! Nobody planning ahead? Nobody taking care that civilization keeps going, that ruthless people are kept in check, nobody doing the plumbing or taking out the garbage? Nobody ensuring a better life for even their own posterity?

    What about personal responsibility?

    There's a term for those people: free loaders. And it's their kind that's most likely to be the downfall of the rest of us, because they refuse to acknowledge the fact that [i]their actions have consequences[/i]. The world only ever truly improves when people become willing delay their own gratification to accomplish a greater task.

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    We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
  • croxiscroxis I am the walrus
    [quote]Originally posted by Bekenn:
    [b]Croxis: Every time I hear that song, I want to throttle the singer/songwriter.

    Why? Because of this bit:

    Erm, excuse me... this is supposed to be [i]desirable[/i]?? No! That would be [b]horrible[/b]! Nobody planning ahead? Nobody taking care that civilization keeps going, that ruthless people are kept in check, nobody doing the plumbing or taking out the garbage? Nobody ensuring a better life for even their own posterity?

    What about personal responsibility?

    There's a term for those people: free loaders. And it's their kind that's most likely to be the downfall of the rest of us, because they refuse to acknowledge the fact that [i]their actions have consequences[/i]. The world only ever truly improves when people become willing delay their own gratification to accomplish a greater task.

    [/B][/quote]


    How the bloody hell did you get that from those two lines? That was NOT what John Lennon was talking about!

    [quote]
    Imagine there's no heaven
    It's easy if you try
    No hell below us
    Above us only sky
    Imagine all the people
    Living for today...

    Imagine there's no countries
    It isn't hard to do
    Nothing to kill or die for
    And no religion too
    Imagine all the people
    Living life in peace...

    You may say I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will be as one

    Imagine no possessions
    I wonder if you can
    No need for greed or hunger
    A brotherhood of man
    Imagine all the people
    Sharing all the world...

    You may say I'm a dreamer
    But I'm not the only one
    I hope someday you'll join us
    And the world will live as one
    [/quote]

    He is taking about living in the now, in the current moment. All of what you said about freeloaders is no where in the song. You assume far too much.

    You better learn your history too.
  • BekennBekenn Sinclair's Duck
    Oh, I fully agree that I was taking far too small a sample of the song to be truly representative.

    There's much more abject stupidity in the song than can be represented by a mere two lines of it; thank you for clarifying that by posting the whole thing. Let's go over it stanza by stanza, shall we?

    First stanza:
    No heaven? No hell? This is supposed to be a good thing? Lennon here is figuratively describing a morally neutral universe or society (not, as it might appear at first glance, an attack on religious beliefs; that comes later). The implication of this is, as I have stated before, that there are no consequences for your actions; there's no reward for doing good, and no punishment for doing evil. What, then, is our motivation for doing anything that is not solely in our own best interests? What reason, then, does anyone have to sacrifice something of himself for the good of others? In a morally neutral society, there isn't any reason.

    Second stanza:
    1) No countries? So, no regulating authority on anything? No justice system? Nothing in place to protect your individual rights? This is supposed to be good? No, thanks.
    2) Nothing to kill or die for? So, no idea or even person of such supreme importance that you're willing to sacrifice yourself for it, or even protect it from attack? No convictions whatsoever? What about family, liberty? Are these to be sacrificed to the cause of pacifism? Not on my watch.
    3) No religion? So, religion, whether true or not, rather than being a restraining influence on our baser desires and impulses, rather than providing meaning to a life well lived, rather than providing the basic infrastructure to a functioning society, a set of rules to live by -- religion is a curse? Religious beliefs should never be tolerated, because they might generate friction between groups who believe differently? I find that insulting.
    4) "Imagine all the people, living life in peace..." -- Sorry, but that picture does not and cannot mesh in the least bit with the rest of it.

    Third stanza:
    This is the least outright offensive stanza of the song, but it's still utterly baseless in reality. Humans will always squabble over territory, food, or some other such thing. It is only the concept of "property" and the recognition by society that another person's property is sacrosanct that keeps people from killing each other. "Greed" is mostly a by-product of a person's contempt for another's property, and hunger certainly won't go away if we stop respecting other peoples' claims to ownership of something. Quite the opposite; without some kind of reward (or prodding by an oppressive government), no provider -- no farmer, no hunter -- has any reason to produce more than he specifically needs. Without some form of payment (or promise of punishment for failure), anything extra will just be discarded. Far from "a brotherhood of man," we would simply fall into anarchy and decay and despair.

    Chorus:
    Yes, Mr. Lennon, you are a dreamer. A dreamer of nightmares, and there's little more frightening to me than the idea that you're not the only one spewing this nonsense.

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    We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!

    [This message has been edited by Bekenn (edited 11-20-2002).]
  • I think someone is taking this word by word 'analysis' a little too seriously.

    Instead of trying to analyze the entire song word for word, try to think more about the idea it is trying to convey...
  • JackNJackN <font color=#99FF99>Lightwave Alien</font>
    [quote]Originally posted by Canuck:
    [b]Instead of trying to analyze the entire song word for word, try to think more about the idea it is trying to convey...[/b][/quote]

    Same thing, just simpler... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
  • BekennBekenn Sinclair's Duck
    [quote]Originally posted by Canuck:
    [b]I think someone is taking this word by word 'analysis' a little too seriously.
    [/b][/quote]

    You're probably right; it's just one of my pet peeves.

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    We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!

    [This message has been edited by Bekenn (edited 11-21-2002).]
  • ArgoneArgone Genuine Klingon
    [b]HEY![/b] Can't we all just get along here! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]

    Guess not

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    [b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
  • croxiscroxis I am the walrus
    All the points John made are based on this idea:

    That we, as individuals and as a people need to get to the point where we don't need countries or heaven or hell.

    This is the fundamental beliefs of REAL anarchists, where people reach a point where government is just simply no longer needed.
  • I think the song, like many utopian ideals mean well and are founded on a genuine hope for a better world. However, without problems, challenges, and causes to fight for we would loose what makes us human. What would life be worth without challenge? How could we value freedom without the fear of tyranny? How could we feel love without knowing hate?

    The answer for the future is not some happy bland grey world where everyone thinks and acts the same, but a dynamic world where conditions and oportunities are better for all of us, and where challenges continue exist to push us and motivate us.

    There must always be a reason to strive, to seek, to find, and not to yeild. I think both those who believe in a utopian "happy land", and those who think the world will never change or get worse are wrong. We can unite, and we can make things better on Earth, because the challenges faced by war, poverty, famine, diesease, and all those things which motivate us to act will be replaced by newer and bigger challenges as we move beyond our planet.



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    We Live as one, We die as one, We will face the darkness as one.

    "Understanding is a Three Edged Sword- Your side, Their side, And the Truth...."
  • BekennBekenn Sinclair's Duck
    Very much agreed.

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    We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
  • PJHPJH The Lovely Thing
    [quote]Originally posted by Argone:
    [b]The problem is everyone here is still thinking along the lines of a monetary system!

    Why? Do we really need a monetary system?

    If we knew the world was going to be destroyed in 25 years and their was another planet we could go to do you think they would worry about the cost?

    Doesn't everyone have the right to be educated no matter the cost?

    Do away with the monetary system and change the world!


    [/b][/quote]

    Agreed! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/icons/icon14.gif[/img]

    That's what I've been thinking about a long long time already. Just never said it out loud. IMHO the monetary system was one of the worst inventions of humankind ever. It is what screwed the world pretty much in the end and in fact that's often the very reason why people want power and influence over others. They want power to get more money and wealth while the real reason to get power should be to make things honestly better in this world.

    [quote] Again, Im kinda cynical like the donkey Benjamin in Animal Farm, no matter who you put in charge, things are going to stay the same.[/quote]

    Definitely not true. I know people, many people, who honestly would make difference if given the power to actually do something and who would not give a damn about getting rich etc., myself included.

    - PJH
  • Markets have worked pretty damn well so far. They are as fair as can be without giving power to a governing body that would corrupt absolutely. I have yet to see you propose an alternative form of distribution. Just a lot of talk about how terrible things are…
  • ArgoneArgone Genuine Klingon
    Not terrible, Corrupt, Big difference!

    If the system was not corrupted by greed it would probably work fine!

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    [b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
  • PJHPJH The Lovely Thing
    Again, I agree. While I don't keep the system 100% working even without the greed, there would certainly be a major difference without it worldwide.

    - PJH
  • TyvarTyvar Next best thing to a St. Bernard
    [quote]Originally posted by PJH:
    [b] Definitely not true. I know people, many people, who honestly would make difference if given the power to actually do something and who would not give a damn about getting rich etc., myself included.

    - PJH[/b][/quote]


    Heh, its so easy to think that now, sorry PJH, while you may thing you could do great things with power, and you probably would, but eventualy you would destroy yourself and others. the saying "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly" may be a cliche at this point, but its a cliche because its TRUE.
  • PJHPJH The Lovely Thing
    [quote]Originally posted by Tyvar:
    [b]
    Heh, its so easy to think that now, sorry PJH, while you may thing you could do great things with power, and you probably would, but eventualy you would destroy yourself and others. the saying "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutly" may be a cliche at this point, but its a cliche because its TRUE.[/b][/quote]

    Bullshit.

    - PJH
  • ArgoneArgone Genuine Klingon
    All you have to do is go back through history, "Those who do not learn from history are destinied to relive it", to see that all Great Empires start with good ideas and intentions.

    But then Greed, Corruption, Sloth, and Injustice take over and the Empire collapses from within!

    Prime Examples; Roman Empire, Egyptian, and China.

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    [b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
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