Hey, don't get me wrong, I'd love it if all the people in the world suddenly became enlightened and relized that muder, rape, etc doesn't help anyone, and world peace arose. But unfortually, I can say with 100% certainty that that will not happen.
as Einstein said:
"There are only two things that are eternal
the universe and human stupidity - and I'm not certain about the first."
------------------
[b]whitestar90: [/b]"it would give the computer a heartattack just looking at it" -
[b]Sanfam: [/b]"And Drazi didn't like it one bit.-
[b]Mr.Bungle: [/b][i]"So that's where the forum went..."[/i]-
---
[b][i]ahhh, the good old days of HTML.[/i][/b]
And the case for what I suspect but will not say straight out grows:
See the previous six points and now:
7) Young described the driver as a short man of slight build who appeared to be Middle Eastern. "I got a good look at the guy," he said. [url="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021016/ap_on_re_us/sniper_shootings_214"]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021016/ap_on_re_us/sniper_shoot ings_214[/url]
8)There are reports it might have been an AK-47 chambered for .223, these are rare but not impossible to find.
One more point, I'm opposed to the military coming in on this. Chief Moose, the Glendening, and the FBI should be strung up by thier... um... almonds/wall/pea/horse.
I'd better add one more time that the news reports might not be trustworthy.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 10-16-2002).]
Might not help but some people can't be reasoned with.
With some people you have to be able to degenerate to there level to understand what makes them tick.
As for punishment; I believe it should fit the crime. The notion that taking their life in a "cruel" way makes you as bad as them is completely ridiculous.
Maybe if their punishment was to die the way they're victims did some of these nuts would think twice. If not let the victims families have him to do with as they please!
------------------
[b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
Konrad - your info is wrong: The report is not an AK-47 but an AK-74. But they don't know for sure if thats accurate.
Also, why are you against military survalience? Miltary officials can't be used to police US soil, however their equipment can. That is basically what they are doing since there will be FBI agents on all aircraft.
There isn't much difference between the two, an AK-74 is only an AKM-47 rechambered for 5.45 x 39 mm. There is no way the witness could be sure of what it was between the two, and we have not heard back from the ballistics lab on if this shooting was done with .223 (guns can be changed, I said chambered for). So my miss type was no big deal, and in fact not wrong. I said in that very post that the reports are not 100%, so don't be so quick to show how smart you are.[url="http://www.sovietarmy.com/small_arms/ak-47.html"]http://www.sovietarmy.com/small_arms/ak-47.html[/url] [url="http://www.sovietarmy.com/small_arms/ak-74.html"]http://www.sovietarmy.com/small_arms/ak-74.html[/url]
I oppose them using the military or military equipment because while it is not unprecedented it is very rare, and in my opinion should not be done. In my opinion 'Posse Comitatus' goes to far. I can just feel the police asking for this kind of stuff in the future taking more steps towards the para-military and invasion of privacy. I should be able to shoot safely when I want on my property without setting off bells and whistles that get me harassed by the police. MD's move to ban shooting of any kind in four counties is a loss of one more liberty in a wave of harassment of innocents and liberties and privacy lost.
They were talking about using an unmaned Preditor too, with the right equipment that thing can do more to watch and record you than you want to know.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 10-16-2002).]
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
MD did not ban shooting of any kind. What the banned was recreational shooting (ie, hunting) in those counties for the duration of the investigation only. I fully support it. VA is considering doing the same.
What other kind of legal shooting is there? Self Defense? Not with the way the laws are written; though people do get away with it (I've taken the concealed carry course from an instructor that was very blunt). That's not my main point anyway.
All I'm pointing out is who or what group I suspect it is, that liberties ARE being lost (even if you think only temporarily). Consider this, they're already pulling over every white van they see often the same ones multiple times, they're already talking registry, they're already doing active surveillance; what are they going to propose after six or seven more shootings?
Abuse of power is guaranteed, and these rubes are afraid everyone is going to realize that they are useless in their job of protecting us. They will do anything to protect their income.
The police have proven that they are not better than the Fire Department. They can only respond and investigate, they have no hope of catching before an act. If they get lucky they might piece some clues together and find a killer like this before he hits again, but only in serial cases. Other than that we are responsible for our own safety.
You're detracting from the point I was trying to make.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 10-16-2002).]
Sigh, the type of weapon has not been identified, (or if it has the type has not been released to the public. it could be a an AK-74 derivitive (chambered for 5.56, they have become more common since the fall of the soviet union, at least two companies in russia make such a weapon.
However it IS not an old east block weapon, the 5.45 IS NOT .223(5.56)
The chinese also make a derivitve of the AK-74 chambered for 5.56, however as far as I know it never entered volume production (it might have actauly)
If it is a 5.56 AK there is a potential for the weapon having been smuggled into the US, such things do happen, and with moderate regularity.
[quote]Originally posted by A2597:
[b]Hey, don't get me wrong, I'd love it if all the people in the world suddenly became enlightened and relized that muder, rape, etc doesn't help anyone, and world peace arose. But unfortually, I can say with 100% certainty that that will not happen.
[/b][/quote]
I agree with you. But I disagree(d) on the conclusion to be drawn.
Violence (or stupidity, as you put it) can NOT be stopped by counter-violence or threat of violence. It will, in the contrary, only produce new violent thoughts and acts (for a good example, watch what happens in your minds, people, when you hear that the sniper killed another person). He/she is producing violent thoughts quite successfully...
Thanks on your personal note [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] -- and, if you want there to be more "enlightened" people: You can do something about. Help stopping unneccessary violence (and there would be no necessity for violence when the offender got caught).
------------------
We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
Another shooting just took place near Richmond - they have apparently shut down I-95
I use the term loosely, in as much as he is a good killer.
As yet he's remained elusive and shoots well.
The only hope is he'll get increasingly cocky and make a mistake. If not he's going to have a red hot go at breaking a few macbre records. Unfortunately as far as mass killings go Martin Bryant still holds the record and 30+ people is alot... esp one by one by one...
With any luck he'll be silly enough to try taking multipile kills at the one site and as a consequence give the cops etc a chance to nail him.
~~~
As far as his choice of weapon, the witness claiming to have seen the gunner ( I'm not going to call him a sniper, he's well beneath that), has proved to be an unreliable witness and the white van and the gun description have been withdrawn by the police.
If he's using a .223/5.56 weapon it's probably a quite reasonable gun, with a good scope. No doubt of American or European manufacture. I'd be willing to bet its one of the quasi-military/home defence pieces, with a bipod and so forth. If he's hitting people at 250m or so and he's not a highly practised marksman, he's using a bipod, esp if he's flat shooting from the ground like he did when he shot the schoolboy. He packs up fast, he doesn't even collect his shells.
I hope he doesnt change up to a 7.62 and start blatting people from longer range as described above. I hope he's flat broke, or silly enough to go buying guns/ammo and get himself nailed that way.
This guy is a very efficent killer. I just hope he is gets more unstable than he is at the moment. His mind is in full control so far. Once his emotions kick in, he should start making mistakes.
The worst kind of psycho is a cold and intelligent one.
~~~
On the saftey issue... if you have to go to an exposed place. Carry an umbrella. Anything that prevents this guy from getting a clear line of sight is to your advantage... open it in the 'direction of fire' and swing it around...
if it's one thing this guy is, it's the fact that he's a budding perfectionist. He wont take a wounding shot if he can avoid it. A large LOS blocker like an Umbrella will make his shot next to inpossible if you are moving around behind it.
This new shooting could be a copy cat, or represent a definate change in MO
The washington Post is already reporting that the cartridge found was from a 7.62/.308 meaning either the guy has upgunned or its a diffrent guy
They found a van with 5.56 shell casings in it, and it was an airport rental.. Im still not firmly convinced this is a "lone wacko" some things just are not adding up.
This guy isnt acting anything like typical serial killers, he's taking damn few risks, and is inanely well planned out.
I think there it is entirely within the relm of possiblity that this is terrorist related.
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
Your info is very wrong:
- Rental van shell casing was NOT the same as used in any of the attacks. It is unrelated.
- There has been NO shell casing or balistic evidence as yet recovered from the shooting last night.
We shall see: if this person really hit on a Saturday night it kills my theory.
I would like to point out that there are still all kinds of drug and gang related killing going on in South East DC but no one seems to care (three of them on Saturday). Even more people have been injured or killed in car crashes around the area by serial DUI drivers; but no one seems to care.
Stopping outdoor (even indoor) activities and putting tarps up around gas stations is REDICULUS. The news media is eating up this story and are distorting reality here using peoples emotions for their own gain. People are being absurd.
Let's try to get a little perspective here.
Oh yea, and the cops are still harrasing innocents: explain this image:
[url="http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I54350-2002Oct20"]http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I54350-2002Oct20[/url] I know I'd be freaking out and PISSED if I had to work in a white truck and got cuffed face down in the dirt like this. This is out of control.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 10-20-2002).]
[quote]Originally posted by Random Chaos:
[b]Your info is very wrong:
- Rental van shell casing was NOT the same as used in any of the attacks. It is unrelated.
- There has been NO shell casing or balistic evidence as yet recovered from the shooting last night.[/b][/quote]
Alright, we have some reports from the Washinton post that there were .308 casings in the truck, however the Police/FBI still havent said one way or another, and ignored those comments. the WP is quoting "law enforcement sources" which they quoted a few days ago saying "5.56"
Now the authorties damn well know what the caliber of those cartridges is.
Almost all the cartridges I have ever fired or seen fired have the base stamped. Civilan cartidges have the manufacturer and the caliber imprinted on the base, Military cartiges usualy have the ordance plant (actualy a two letter designator) and the last two numbers on the year stamped on them.
If this guy is using factory ammo they know who made it, and the caliber of the weapon by just looking at it. If he's running surpluse US milspec, they still probably know the cartidge size by just looking at it, .223 and .308 are diffrent looking, the .308 is obviously wider and longer
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 10-21-2002).]
The cartridge that they found in the van at Dulles airport had nothing to do with the shootings. So just forget about it.
As for bullets involved in real shooting it's very difficult to take a bullet out of a body and figure out what bullet it was. Have you ever pulled bullets or bullet fragments out of a range backstop or an animal? The perp is doing a good job of picking up after himself at the crime scenes so there is no cartridge to look at. My bet is he's got a brass catcher on his gun, or he's shooting from inside the van (if he/she's even in a van) in a way so that they can't fall out.
The news media have proven that they are useless. I don't trust any of the information anymore. I don't trust the police either, and not just for their bad information. That link to the image I posted says it all.
Something else is going on here, and I think the police are being duped. There is too great a chance there are copycats or clues are being given to confuse the situation.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 10-21-2002).]
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
Konrad:
Do you have any idea how much information can be recovered from balistic evidence? With proper testing, which is being done, there is an almost impossible chance of balistic matches being wrong. And all but 3 have a positive balistic match. Those 3 have no evidence either way.
Frankly, understand the science before saying there are copycats. I can easily believe there are copycats IF the balistic evidence did not link them.
What I can believe however is that all the shootings (the 9 with balistic matches that is) are from the same gun. THIS IS NOT SAYING that the same person fired the gun all 9 of those times.
"Frankly," I never said it was impossible did I? What I said in my post was it is a lot more difficult to pick a bullet out of a body and declare "This came from that gun." than picking up a cartridge off the ground looking at the breech scrapings and caliber stamp and saying "This came from that gun."
When a soft lead bullet smacks into a varying density object like a body it deforms, mushrooms, fragments, almost turns inside out if it's a hollow point or ballistic tip etc. Your telling me that it's 'easy' to take a deformed bullet and say that this marking came from this gun because it has a scratch here that was made before it hit the body. How could they know how the bullet hitting the body would warp the markings from the gun. Don't tell me your just going to look at the rifling grooves because there are dozens of guns out there than have the same twist ratio, caliber, and rifling style as my gun. I'm not going to be prosecuted based on my gun having a similar barrel that's not beyond the shadow of a doubt. They don't have a test shot from the murder weapon as a control, therefor they can only say these shootings are coming from the same caliber guns no more. "Same Gun?" No official has ever said that it's the same gun. As a matter of fact they have said it could be several guns: same caliber's! Therefore why couldn't there be someone with an AR-15 out there doing copy cat stuff.
How much forensic testing experience do you have? I don't have any but I have lots of shooting experience.
I'll repeat it for you: No official has ever said that it's the same gun. In fact they have said it could be several guns. So why couldn't there be a copycat using the same caliber?
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 10-21-2002).]
Read all four articles then try and tell me that with only bullet fragments, and ONE somewhat suspicious shell casing left behind, and no control test fire of the murder weapon/s you could tell me beyond 50/50 that there are not two people with different guns that are the same caliber doing the shootings.
I'm not saying I think there's a copycat for certain, but you can't rule it out. The forensic evidence does NOT link them beyond caliber.
Just like I'm not willing to say there is a terrorist involved, but you can't rule it out.
At any rate all these bullet fragments will be fantastic for prosecuting the person/persons, but first you have to catch them.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 10-21-2002).]
Actualy Konrad, in regards to the fragmentation, odds are since its a .223 your dealing with full metal jacketed rounds, which while they deform do not deform as badly, and even the infamous framenting abilities of the .223 break down beyond 200 yards or so, the velocity is too low, the exact velocity is roughly 2700 feet per second, bellow that the round will not break appart when it key-holes, and at about 200 yards most 5.56 rounds shot from a standard M-16A2, later AR-15's are around 2700 feet per second, many will fragment, some will not.
Its this fact that has three of his victoms still alive, the rounds did not fragment thus the bleeding (predominatly internal usualy) was slow enough that medical personel were able to arrive and transport the person before they bled to death.
I have seen positive expansion rounds pulled out of animals, and your right they are impossible to identify at times. However have you seen full metal jacketed rounds pulled out of animals?, I have (ahem, yes I know its not proper hunting, but somebody managed to grab the ex-GI 06 rounds instead of our usual remington hunting loads. Anyways, they tend to be alot less deformed infact I have (actualy my uncle has it now) a full metal jacketed 30-06 round that was pulled out of my grandfather (friendly fire in WW2) the bullet is remarkably intact even after it struck the metal front plate of a gideon new testament.
Furthermore 06 AP rounds (black tip) hold together real well after hiting a "soft" target and usualy what ever is behind said "soft" target, although they typicaly loose their copper jacket.
As for the van at Dulles, we still dont know, the police are not talking and the media has no clue, so lets wait till we get an official press release on that one alright?
As for not knowing if the rounds are all comming out of the same weapon, Konrad has a point, untill they get the weapon for a control shoot, and examine the tracks left by it, it is fairly iffy..
However Konrad, I dont think you understand the science fully, the microscopes they examine the shells with are damn powerfull at and discriminate to microns. This allows them to fairly well diffrentiate between barels, since each barrel shapes diffrently when the metal and every weapon will demonstrate a much different wearing pattern. AS LONG AS the barrel is in the same shape as it was when firing the rounds.. you put 500-1000 rounds through the barrel, she's going to have a different wear level and be alot harder to match, unless there is something distinctive there to match.. This is why ballistic fingerprinting is a joke.
Anyways, I think odds are they have found more then 1 shell casing so far, so maybe they have established a link off of that.
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 10-22-2002).]
[b]"Michael Bouchard, a special agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, also urged the public to come forward with information about anyone who seems preoccupied with the shootings and who might have a fascination with weaponry.
"Don't focus on the guns," he said.
Bouchard said as many as 30 different weapons - from bolt-action rifles to automatic assault weapons - are capable of firing rounds that mark the sniper's choice of ammunition.
Ballistic tests and other evidence show that nine of the 12 shootings involved cartridges in the .221-.222-.223-caliber class of ammunition being used in the attacks.[/b]
Everything you said was fantastic Tyvar. All I was doing was defending my point that it is possible that there are more than one shooters/guns. I find it interesting that the ATF still are not saying in public exactly what caliber it is.
Everything is open to speculation, and I think RC was premature to try and make me look like and idiot. That's all.
"No official has ever said that it's the same gun. In fact they have said it could be several guns. So why couldn't there be a copycat using the same caliber?"
Konrad, the thing is with the case markings they would know if they came from the same weapon or not, Unless the guy is fudging things in between each shoot, which is possible. What they WONT know is EXACTLY what TYPE of weapon it is, it could be a Mini-14 (unlikely those things are about as accurate as a blind man with a rubber band gun) AR-15, various bolt actions, what have you, So while they can figure out if its one gun or 2 guns or 7, they wont know exactly what the make/model is.
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
Konrad - I was trying to get Sanfam to come and explain to you what exactly goes into Balistics. Forensics is a hobby of Sanfam's...he knows quite a deal about what balistics can and cannot tell - as he explained to me about a week and a half ago. Unfortunately he was too tired to see a keyboard last night...
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
Seems another shooting.
This morning at 6am.
Their dragnet basically snarled rush hour this time...probably will take them the whole day for trafic to clear out.
Humm. weapon is .221-.222-.223 range? I wonder if the reason why they are not talking is that they are dealing with a wildcatter, somebody may be necking down a 5.56 or maybe even a 7.62 to a smaller bore and running a custom barrel and such, but that would be incredibly distinctive.
If its a .222 remington, or one of the other rounds in that caliber the brass should have tipped them off. I think its time to make some inquieries to some people, I probably wont get a response, but who knows.
[quote]Originally posted by Tyvar:
[b] Konrad, the thing is with the case markings they would know if they came from the same weapon or not, [/b][/quote]
Right, but my point is they don't appear to have the cartridge/case from all the shootings.
Random ChaosActually Carefully-selected Order in disguise
AP just came out with this report:
[quote]Associated Press Writer
Tuesday, October 22, 2002; 4:49 PM
Comments
as Einstein said:
"There are only two things that are eternal
the universe and human stupidity - and I'm not certain about the first."
------------------
[b]whitestar90: [/b]"it would give the computer a heartattack just looking at it" -
[b]Sanfam: [/b]"And Drazi didn't like it one bit.-
[b]Mr.Bungle: [/b][i]"So that's where the forum went..."[/i]-
---
[b][i]ahhh, the good old days of HTML.[/i][/b]
See the previous six points and now:
7) Young described the driver as a short man of slight build who appeared to be Middle Eastern. "I got a good look at the guy," he said. [url="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021016/ap_on_re_us/sniper_shootings_214"]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20021016/ap_on_re_us/sniper_shoot ings_214[/url]
8)There are reports it might have been an AK-47 chambered for .223, these are rare but not impossible to find.
One more point, I'm opposed to the military coming in on this. Chief Moose, the Glendening, and the FBI should be strung up by thier... um... almonds/wall/pea/horse.
I'd better add one more time that the news reports might not be trustworthy.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 10-16-2002).]
With some people you have to be able to degenerate to there level to understand what makes them tick.
As for punishment; I believe it should fit the crime. The notion that taking their life in a "cruel" way makes you as bad as them is completely ridiculous.
Maybe if their punishment was to die the way they're victims did some of these nuts would think twice. If not let the victims families have him to do with as they please!
------------------
[b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
Also, why are you against military survalience? Miltary officials can't be used to police US soil, however their equipment can. That is basically what they are doing since there will be FBI agents on all aircraft.
I oppose them using the military or military equipment because while it is not unprecedented it is very rare, and in my opinion should not be done. In my opinion 'Posse Comitatus' goes to far. I can just feel the police asking for this kind of stuff in the future taking more steps towards the para-military and invasion of privacy. I should be able to shoot safely when I want on my property without setting off bells and whistles that get me harassed by the police. MD's move to ban shooting of any kind in four counties is a loss of one more liberty in a wave of harassment of innocents and liberties and privacy lost.
They were talking about using an unmaned Preditor too, with the right equipment that thing can do more to watch and record you than you want to know.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 10-16-2002).]
All I'm pointing out is who or what group I suspect it is, that liberties ARE being lost (even if you think only temporarily). Consider this, they're already pulling over every white van they see often the same ones multiple times, they're already talking registry, they're already doing active surveillance; what are they going to propose after six or seven more shootings?
Abuse of power is guaranteed, and these rubes are afraid everyone is going to realize that they are useless in their job of protecting us. They will do anything to protect their income.
The police have proven that they are not better than the Fire Department. They can only respond and investigate, they have no hope of catching before an act. If they get lucky they might piece some clues together and find a killer like this before he hits again, but only in serial cases. Other than that we are responsible for our own safety.
You're detracting from the point I was trying to make.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 10-16-2002).]
However it IS not an old east block weapon, the 5.45 IS NOT .223(5.56)
The chinese also make a derivitve of the AK-74 chambered for 5.56, however as far as I know it never entered volume production (it might have actauly)
If it is a 5.56 AK there is a potential for the weapon having been smuggled into the US, such things do happen, and with moderate regularity.
[b]Hey, don't get me wrong, I'd love it if all the people in the world suddenly became enlightened and relized that muder, rape, etc doesn't help anyone, and world peace arose. But unfortually, I can say with 100% certainty that that will not happen.
[/b][/quote]
I agree with you. But I disagree(d) on the conclusion to be drawn.
Violence (or stupidity, as you put it) can NOT be stopped by counter-violence or threat of violence. It will, in the contrary, only produce new violent thoughts and acts (for a good example, watch what happens in your minds, people, when you hear that the sniper killed another person). He/she is producing violent thoughts quite successfully...
Thanks on your personal note [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img] -- and, if you want there to be more "enlightened" people: You can do something about. Help stopping unneccessary violence (and there would be no necessity for violence when the offender got caught).
------------------
We are one. No matter the blood, no matter the skin, no matter the world, no matter the star. .. We are one.
No matter the pain, no matter the darkness, no matter the loss, no matter the fear. .. We are one.
- Alliance Preamble to the Declaration of Principles, The Paragon of Animals
Webmaster [url="http://www.Sprungtor.de"]www.Sprungtor.de[/url]
What a complete waste of a good human life!
------------------
[b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
I use the term loosely, in as much as he is a good killer.
As yet he's remained elusive and shoots well.
The only hope is he'll get increasingly cocky and make a mistake. If not he's going to have a red hot go at breaking a few macbre records. Unfortunately as far as mass killings go Martin Bryant still holds the record and 30+ people is alot... esp one by one by one...
With any luck he'll be silly enough to try taking multipile kills at the one site and as a consequence give the cops etc a chance to nail him.
~~~
As far as his choice of weapon, the witness claiming to have seen the gunner ( I'm not going to call him a sniper, he's well beneath that), has proved to be an unreliable witness and the white van and the gun description have been withdrawn by the police.
If he's using a .223/5.56 weapon it's probably a quite reasonable gun, with a good scope. No doubt of American or European manufacture. I'd be willing to bet its one of the quasi-military/home defence pieces, with a bipod and so forth. If he's hitting people at 250m or so and he's not a highly practised marksman, he's using a bipod, esp if he's flat shooting from the ground like he did when he shot the schoolboy. He packs up fast, he doesn't even collect his shells.
I hope he doesnt change up to a 7.62 and start blatting people from longer range as described above. I hope he's flat broke, or silly enough to go buying guns/ammo and get himself nailed that way.
This guy is a very efficent killer. I just hope he is gets more unstable than he is at the moment. His mind is in full control so far. Once his emotions kick in, he should start making mistakes.
The worst kind of psycho is a cold and intelligent one.
~~~
On the saftey issue... if you have to go to an exposed place. Carry an umbrella. Anything that prevents this guy from getting a clear line of sight is to your advantage... open it in the 'direction of fire' and swing it around...
if it's one thing this guy is, it's the fact that he's a budding perfectionist. He wont take a wounding shot if he can avoid it. A large LOS blocker like an Umbrella will make his shot next to inpossible if you are moving around behind it.
The washington Post is already reporting that the cartridge found was from a 7.62/.308 meaning either the guy has upgunned or its a diffrent guy
They found a van with 5.56 shell casings in it, and it was an airport rental.. Im still not firmly convinced this is a "lone wacko" some things just are not adding up.
This guy isnt acting anything like typical serial killers, he's taking damn few risks, and is inanely well planned out.
I think there it is entirely within the relm of possiblity that this is terrorist related.
- Rental van shell casing was NOT the same as used in any of the attacks. It is unrelated.
- There has been NO shell casing or balistic evidence as yet recovered from the shooting last night.
I would like to point out that there are still all kinds of drug and gang related killing going on in South East DC but no one seems to care (three of them on Saturday). Even more people have been injured or killed in car crashes around the area by serial DUI drivers; but no one seems to care.
Stopping outdoor (even indoor) activities and putting tarps up around gas stations is REDICULUS. The news media is eating up this story and are distorting reality here using peoples emotions for their own gain. People are being absurd.
Let's try to get a little perspective here.
Oh yea, and the cops are still harrasing innocents: explain this image:
[url="http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I54350-2002Oct20"]http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/images/I54350-2002Oct20[/url] I know I'd be freaking out and PISSED if I had to work in a white truck and got cuffed face down in the dirt like this. This is out of control.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 10-20-2002).]
My rights were forfitted because i drove a white van.
NOT COOL.
drops crime to 0 you know.
[b]Your info is very wrong:
- Rental van shell casing was NOT the same as used in any of the attacks. It is unrelated.
- There has been NO shell casing or balistic evidence as yet recovered from the shooting last night.[/b][/quote]
Alright, we have some reports from the Washinton post that there were .308 casings in the truck, however the Police/FBI still havent said one way or another, and ignored those comments. the WP is quoting "law enforcement sources" which they quoted a few days ago saying "5.56"
Now the authorties damn well know what the caliber of those cartridges is.
Almost all the cartridges I have ever fired or seen fired have the base stamped. Civilan cartidges have the manufacturer and the caliber imprinted on the base, Military cartiges usualy have the ordance plant (actualy a two letter designator) and the last two numbers on the year stamped on them.
If this guy is using factory ammo they know who made it, and the caliber of the weapon by just looking at it. If he's running surpluse US milspec, they still probably know the cartidge size by just looking at it, .223 and .308 are diffrent looking, the .308 is obviously wider and longer
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 10-21-2002).]
As for bullets involved in real shooting it's very difficult to take a bullet out of a body and figure out what bullet it was. Have you ever pulled bullets or bullet fragments out of a range backstop or an animal? The perp is doing a good job of picking up after himself at the crime scenes so there is no cartridge to look at. My bet is he's got a brass catcher on his gun, or he's shooting from inside the van (if he/she's even in a van) in a way so that they can't fall out.
The news media have proven that they are useless. I don't trust any of the information anymore. I don't trust the police either, and not just for their bad information. That link to the image I posted says it all.
Something else is going on here, and I think the police are being duped. There is too great a chance there are copycats or clues are being given to confuse the situation.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 10-21-2002).]
Do you have any idea how much information can be recovered from balistic evidence? With proper testing, which is being done, there is an almost impossible chance of balistic matches being wrong. And all but 3 have a positive balistic match. Those 3 have no evidence either way.
Frankly, understand the science before saying there are copycats. I can easily believe there are copycats IF the balistic evidence did not link them.
What I can believe however is that all the shootings (the 9 with balistic matches that is) are from the same gun. THIS IS NOT SAYING that the same person fired the gun all 9 of those times.
--RC
When a soft lead bullet smacks into a varying density object like a body it deforms, mushrooms, fragments, almost turns inside out if it's a hollow point or ballistic tip etc. Your telling me that it's 'easy' to take a deformed bullet and say that this marking came from this gun because it has a scratch here that was made before it hit the body. How could they know how the bullet hitting the body would warp the markings from the gun. Don't tell me your just going to look at the rifling grooves because there are dozens of guns out there than have the same twist ratio, caliber, and rifling style as my gun. I'm not going to be prosecuted based on my gun having a similar barrel that's not beyond the shadow of a doubt. They don't have a test shot from the murder weapon as a control, therefor they can only say these shootings are coming from the same caliber guns no more. "Same Gun?" No official has ever said that it's the same gun. As a matter of fact they have said it could be several guns: same caliber's! Therefore why couldn't there be someone with an AR-15 out there doing copy cat stuff.
How much forensic testing experience do you have? I don't have any but I have lots of shooting experience.
I'll repeat it for you: No official has ever said that it's the same gun. In fact they have said it could be several guns. So why couldn't there be a copycat using the same caliber?
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 10-21-2002).]
[url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49976-2002Oct18.html"]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A49976-2002Oct18.html[/url]
[url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34294-2002Oct16.html"]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A34294-2002Oct16.html[/url]
[url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32410-2002Oct15.html"]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32410-2002Oct15.html[/url]
Read all four articles then try and tell me that with only bullet fragments, and ONE somewhat suspicious shell casing left behind, and no control test fire of the murder weapon/s you could tell me beyond 50/50 that there are not two people with different guns that are the same caliber doing the shootings.
I'm not saying I think there's a copycat for certain, but you can't rule it out. The forensic evidence does NOT link them beyond caliber.
Just like I'm not willing to say there is a terrorist involved, but you can't rule it out.
At any rate all these bullet fragments will be fantastic for prosecuting the person/persons, but first you have to catch them.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 10-21-2002).]
Its this fact that has three of his victoms still alive, the rounds did not fragment thus the bleeding (predominatly internal usualy) was slow enough that medical personel were able to arrive and transport the person before they bled to death.
I have seen positive expansion rounds pulled out of animals, and your right they are impossible to identify at times. However have you seen full metal jacketed rounds pulled out of animals?, I have (ahem, yes I know its not proper hunting, but somebody managed to grab the ex-GI 06 rounds instead of our usual remington hunting loads. Anyways, they tend to be alot less deformed infact I have (actualy my uncle has it now) a full metal jacketed 30-06 round that was pulled out of my grandfather (friendly fire in WW2) the bullet is remarkably intact even after it struck the metal front plate of a gideon new testament.
Furthermore 06 AP rounds (black tip) hold together real well after hiting a "soft" target and usualy what ever is behind said "soft" target, although they typicaly loose their copper jacket.
As for the van at Dulles, we still dont know, the police are not talking and the media has no clue, so lets wait till we get an official press release on that one alright?
As for not knowing if the rounds are all comming out of the same weapon, Konrad has a point, untill they get the weapon for a control shoot, and examine the tracks left by it, it is fairly iffy..
However Konrad, I dont think you understand the science fully, the microscopes they examine the shells with are damn powerfull at and discriminate to microns. This allows them to fairly well diffrentiate between barels, since each barrel shapes diffrently when the metal and every weapon will demonstrate a much different wearing pattern. AS LONG AS the barrel is in the same shape as it was when firing the rounds.. you put 500-1000 rounds through the barrel, she's going to have a different wear level and be alot harder to match, unless there is something distinctive there to match.. This is why ballistic fingerprinting is a joke.
Anyways, I think odds are they have found more then 1 shell casing so far, so maybe they have established a link off of that.
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 10-22-2002).]
[b]"Michael Bouchard, a special agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, also urged the public to come forward with information about anyone who seems preoccupied with the shootings and who might have a fascination with weaponry.
"Don't focus on the guns," he said.
Bouchard said as many as 30 different weapons - from bolt-action rifles to automatic assault weapons - are capable of firing rounds that mark the sniper's choice of ammunition.
Ballistic tests and other evidence show that nine of the 12 shootings involved cartridges in the .221-.222-.223-caliber class of ammunition being used in the attacks.[/b]
Everything you said was fantastic Tyvar. All I was doing was defending my point that it is possible that there are more than one shooters/guns. I find it interesting that the ATF still are not saying in public exactly what caliber it is.
Everything is open to speculation, and I think RC was premature to try and make me look like and idiot. That's all.
"No official has ever said that it's the same gun. In fact they have said it could be several guns. So why couldn't there be a copycat using the same caliber?"
This morning at 6am.
Their dragnet basically snarled rush hour this time...probably will take them the whole day for trafic to clear out.
If its a .222 remington, or one of the other rounds in that caliber the brass should have tipped them off. I think its time to make some inquieries to some people, I probably wont get a response, but who knows.
[b] Konrad, the thing is with the case markings they would know if they came from the same weapon or not, [/b][/quote]
Right, but my point is they don't appear to have the cartridge/case from all the shootings.
[quote]Associated Press Writer
Tuesday, October 22, 2002; 4:49 PM
ROCKVILLE, Md. –– Hours after a bus driver was killed in a shooting that appeared to be the work of the Washington-area sniper, police said Tuesday they received a message warning: "Your children are not safe anywhere at any time."
© 2002 The Associated Press[/quote]