You can choose for yourself whether to ignore this as an Israeli fabrication or not but this is 'damning' to say the least.
Here is a small article, the news report had much more of substance. I'm trying to find a transcript of the whole report right now. If true this is going to rock things for certain. [url="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/27/60minutes/main523604.shtml"]http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/27/60minutes/main523604.shtml[/url]
Konrad, that does not suprise me very much. Iraq and Iran do not much care for Israel (especially Iraq, which launched missles at Israil at the start of the Persian Gulf War). But, proof is something that is nice to have.
Re: the Israeli intelligence: I'll believe it when and if the "proof" can be independently verified.
Still, I wouldn't be surprised.
Interesting, since the U.S. now seems to be snuggling up to Iran because it's strategically convenient at the moment.
…just like another administration snuggled up to Iraq when Iran was the bad guy.
The idea that Saddam may give weapons of mass destruction to terrorists bent on harming the United States is indeed a chilling concern.
Yet the question remains – how much and what kind of proof do we need to forcibly effect régime change in another nation? I continue to be troubled by the question and many of the possible answers. I’m troubled by the implications.
If the Israeli intelligence turns out to be valid, I think it adds weight to this administrations arguments for war. But if the U.S. continues to take advantage of Iranian “hospitality” during the confrontation, the hypocrisy will be loud and clear.
The following article is interesting in light of this discussion:
[url="http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020927-500715.htm"]http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020927-500715.htm[/url]
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 09-30-2002).]
Randy, saying were "snuggling" upto Iran is a gross overstatement, Iran is also on the hawk hitlist, and from what alot of the military intel says (specificly alot of detailed analysis on the increasing industrial capabilities of Iran) its probably the biggest target, and its also going to be the toughest nut to crack.
Thats why was going on is alot of work with Iranian dissident movements and more "progressive" types, who are struggling to gain control for the parliment and take it away from the religious leaders
Oh and as for 60 minutes, was it just me or was it pick on muslim country time? ABOUT TIME. God, I dont understand why the left insists on defeding muslim countries, I mean they do realize that the policies those nations persue are fairly similar in alot of ways to what our far right wants to pursue?
No abortion, criminlizing homosexuality, and talk about bringing back the patriarchy.
Ive seen reports, but nothing substantial, that alot of young girls who are run aways and or are missing in Europe and the US are actualy removed through slavery rings and sold to Saudi princes. Its just a acusation now, but if that turns out to be true, that alone is justification for a decleration of war against Saudi Arabia, forget the oil, that kind of stuff is just barbaric and should be stamped out on general principles
And as for the Israeli intelligence, hell everybody has been saying the same thing for years! especialy about Iraq and Iran! god, we have known Iranian military units have been running around in Lebannon for years!
I have a sneaking suspicion the Israeli opening the documents to 60 minutes was only the tip of the iceburg, they are going to start making all of that stuff public, and Its a good thing, because then we will have a better idea of the truth about all sides
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 09-30-2002).]
You know Randy, the thing that bothers me most is the stuff we won't know about for years after a tragedy has already happened.
Those who rule and run governments in those countries are not stupid. Some actually have quite brilliant minds. Because they don't think exactly like we do, or hold the same religious or moral values is what scares us the most, and maybe for good reason.
While we argue and bicker over this story and that story, somewhere in a mountain side, it's biz as usual on something that won't see the light of day for years to come.
They don't give away their best secrets. They create and give away things that we are looking to hear. Meanwhile, the real stuff goes unnoticed.
My bet is that those 200 missing Ukrainian nukes are within Saddam's control, totally unnoticed, while we bicker over all these smaller issues.
Some morning, when our watch is at it's lowest head count, the morning sky will be filled with fire above one or more of our cities.
Make no mistake, they hate the US, and that includes the civilians they feel are funding and supporting the "American Régime".
I can no longer see a possibility of peace, and more frighteningly, I do see the possibility of an individual or select group of individuals taking it totally away from the world.
Call me paranoid, but it has happened before. The maddness of Hitler spread faster than anyone thought possible. As those who were once thought to be pillars of sanity fell to it's spread.
I hope I'm wrong really, but... It's usually every man for himself that comes into priority during times like this, and it rarely groups people of power into an organization that brings peace. King Arthur and the Round Table are a myth.
JackN, I tend to agree with you. We are going to bicker and argue untill oneday we wake up to A) A nuclear bomb or B) a viral attack. A great political cartoon was in the newspaper a few weeks ago showing the mushroom cloud going off in Paris, with a french protester telling Uncle Sam that, well, maybe Iraq does pose a threat. So true its sad. We are going to dick around untill alot of people die. That and politically correctify ourselves into oblivion...
Having said that, maybe it's come to this. When a small group of terrorists have catastrophic potential, maybe there is no other philosophy – survival is the name of the game. He who shoots first remains standing.
If that's true, I can say that I'm not too proud of what humanity has come to.
Great place to live. Well worth fighting for.
I know, I know. I hear, “Get over it. That’s the future, baby. Stick your romantic, politically correct, compassionate, utopianism where the sun don’t shine.”
At least it won’t be too long before it’s not very hard to find a place where the sun doesn’t shine – anywhere on planet Earth will do.
You see, I don’t think it’s about Saddam or terrorists. I think it’s about oil – oil and maintaining a materialistic way of life that depends upon the abuse of our environment and the exploitation of everyone who’s not part of the elite.
This war is a con. Follow the money.
Being a dissenting voice is like pissing into the wind.
The sheep are in the chute.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 10-01-2002).]
[quote]Originally posted by Randy:
[b]Proof be damned.
Let's take out everyone who may be a threat.
Shoot first, ask questions later.
Great philosophy, cowboy.
Having said that, maybe it's come to this. When a small group of terrorists have catastrophic potential, maybe there is no other philosophy ? survival is the name of the game. He who shoots first remains standing.
[/b][/quote]
Well Randy... I didn't say take em out premptively, I'm just saying that's what scares me...
Again, I really don't see a way out. We're headed for a bad time any way you look at it.
GWB and Co. may be after the Oil control, but it still doesn't remove or cancel the fact that Saddam and those like him ARE a threat, to the peace of the world.
I don't know what the answer is really...
... my head hurts...
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
So, Randy... care to join me on the first ship off this rock?
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[url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Never eat anything bigger than your own head.[/url]
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
It's a shame, really. Humankind has great potential. We, of all beasts, have choice in the matter, and the ability to effect change. But if we allow fear to steer our course, we squander our chance to become something more than any other frightened creature, hiding in a dark corner, ready to strike at whatever moves.
It is true that the world is a dangerous place. It is true that Saddam is a threat. I'm just saying that how we chose to behave in the face of danger is a window into who we really are.
Will we chose to be productive, or destructive? Will we chose greed or altruism? Will we be tolerant or intolerant? Will we see only "kill or be killed", or will we be cleverer than that?
The United States has the opportunity to use its power to lead by example. What kind of an example? What do our actions say to the rest of the world? We must remember that the world hears not one voice from America, but many – the voice of our political leaders, the voice of gigantic corporations, the voice of the citizens. What are we saying?
We are saying that we support business and greed over ecology and democracy. We are saying that we think it’s okay for our corporations to brow-beat Third World countries. We are saying that it’s okay for the United States to force its will on the rest of the world. We are saying that we can’t be bothered to vote. We can’t be bothered to educate ourselves. We can’t be bothered to be engaged in the democratic process. But boy do we nonetheless have a lot of opinions and the arrogance of the blessed.
What could we say instead? We could follow the ideals of our founding fathers. That would be a start. We could each strive to be the best of what human potential has to offer. This example would say something worth listening to.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 10-01-2002).]
Randy, it seems to me the only solution to the problems you bring up in regards to america is to bring back the policies of Isolationism, otherwise even attempting to insure "fairness" is going to bring about alot of controversy and trouble.
Problem is, even if the US goes isolationist, the amount of wars around the world will probably increase, not decrease.
Randy "We are saying that we support business and greed over ecology and democracy."
Konrad: Work and Creation (a.k.a. business) leads to new technology which leads less reliance on natural resources. Don't kill off the next wave of renewable resources that is just around the corner by hurting western economy by playing philanthropist with the rest of the world, yet. The time for that will come. Iraq was the nation that set oil fields on fire and created a massive oil slick in the gulf killing innumerable animals on purpose.
Randy "We are saying that we think it’s okay for our corporations to brow-beat Third World countries."
Konrad: It would be a disaster for the rest of the world to 'catch up' tomorrow, there are not enough resources on the planet with their massive overpopulation. In fact western companies going into developing nations help the standard of living, education, and medicine. Even if the work conditions are difficult by your standards it's opening up new opportunities and education for them. Renewable technology will be a god send for the whole planet but it will not come soon enough if the western economies crash now.
Randy "We are saying that it’s okay for the United States to force its will on the rest of the world."
Konrad: When a hand full of lunatics dictators and terrorists have the ability and the notion to level city blocks and perhaps use nuclear and biological weapons there will be no world that you would want to live in left for anyone. Are you saying it's okay to sit by while other totalitarian nations strangle their own people to the point where they can't possible fight for themselves?
Randy: "We are saying that we can’t be bothered to vote."
Konrad: I voted. Those who care and are informed voted. You probably voted. I don't want anyone else who does not care or is uninformed to.
Randy: We can’t be bothered to educate ourselves.
Konrad: The education systems here in the US and the open media seem to be far above and beyond those in Iraq or third world nations. We wouldn't be having this dialogue in many other nations. Open up your mind, you have an opportunity, other don't. You need to think outside of the US perspective.
Randy: We can’t be bothered to be engaged in the democratic process.
Konrad: The senate will vote, other nations may express their opinions and can even sanction or take action to defend Iraq or other nations if they like, they are free to do that, that's the ultimate democracy. You're free to go to Iraq and join the National Guard or Green Peace, or The Peace Corps too.
Randy: We could follow the ideals of our founding fathers. That would be a start.
Konrad: Our founding fathers killed British and Confederates to ensure the safety and freedom of a nation.
Kornad: I will draw from my interpretation of babylon 5 and the shadow war. The shadows are one extreme. They represent progress through destruction and struggle. The parallel to the real world would be Germany in the 40's, or the British colonies ruled by the king/queen, or Dictators who use an iron fist. The Vorlons are the pacifists like the Tibetans or Quakers. People rose up to stop Germany for their evils. The Tibetans are doomed because they don't have a home anymore. Their way will die out because they are unwilling to defend it. The quakers are lucky they are in a protective and tolerant nation, otherwise they to would be doomed, we do their dirty work for them. So any progress they make towards piece those groups make is only snuffed out because they can't defend their way.
There needs to be a medium, a Grey area, and that is where the United States tries it's best to stand. Promoting freedom and democracy in Afghanistan and around the world, and at the same time defending itself against threats by use of force and military might if negotiation fails or wallows.
BOTH peace nicks and warmongers are a danger to the human race. We are still animals like it or not, there are still limited resources and a need for food and sex and there are other animals of our own kind trying to kill us. The job of a good human is to live as altruistically as possible but to survive and pass on those altruism's to the next generation. If a WOMD goes off in your city you don't live, and the next generation doesn't learn from you.
Look at your own life before you point to me. I've worked with poor nations indirectly on their economic government policies, I've joined moderate ecological causes, I do cleanups, and vote to create taxes that force non-commercial SUV drivers to pay for the extra pollution they force on the rest of us. I believe in unlocking the hands of innovative business but holding them accountable for their actions. I tried to join the military to go overseas and fight for the freedoms of this nation and perhaps to create freedoms in others. Every step of my life I have helped myself first then have tied to help others as much as possible.
That why when the plane is going down they tell you to put your mask on first, then help the people around you.
Between the Candle and the Dark… Do good, but survive. Iraq presents a danger to the survival of my nation. If my nation crumbles it's ideals fade away.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 10-01-2002).]
Randy "We are saying that we support business and greed over ecology and democracy."
Konrad: Work and Creation (a.k.a. business) leads to new technology which leads less reliance on natural resources. Don't kill off the next wave of renewable resources that is just around the corner by hurting western economy by playing philanthropist with the rest of the world, yet. The time for that will come. Iraq was the nation that set oil fields on fire and created a massive oil slick in the gulf killing innumerable animals on purpose.
Randy: I’m not talking about all work and creation. I’m talking about mammoth corporations that have an inordinate amount of lobbying power, and who are able to stand in the way of sound ecological policies in order to help maximize profits until the point where a handful of the largest economies in the world are those of corporations (!) – not countries. These same giant corporations stand in the way of innovation and industry built upon renewable, non-polluting resources for the purpose of raking in more money and power based on the use of oil and other outmoded and undesirable (harmful chemical) industries.
Randy "We are saying that we think it’s okay for our corporations to brow-beat Third World countries."
Konrad: It would be a disaster for the rest of the world to 'catch up' tomorrow, there are not enough resources on the planet with their massive overpopulation. In fact western companies going into developing nations help the standard of living, education, and medicine. Even if the work conditions are difficult by your standards it's opening up new opportunities and education for them. Renewable technology will be a god send for the whole planet but it will not come soon enough if the western economies crash now.
Randy: It would be wonderful if this watered-down version of reality were true. Unfortunately what we have is oil company running amok in Third World countries, ruining ecologies, and forcing indigenous people from their ancestral homes without any alternative way of making a living. We have power companies forcing India to build a dam and power plant that turns out to be less than useful, when India could have had its own people build something better, if not for political pressure. We have a mammoth chemical plant blow up, gassing hundreds if not thousands of people. I wish my brain were good enough to remember the specifics, but these are things that have actually happened, and continue to happen, in India, South America, and Africa.
Randy "We are saying that it’s okay for the United States to force its will on the rest of the world."
Konrad: When a hand full of lunatics dictators and terrorists have the ability and the notion to level city blocks and perhaps use nuclear and biological weapons there will be no world that you would want to live in left for anyone. Are you saying it's okay to sit by while other totalitarian nations strangle their own people to the point where they can't possible fight for themselves?
Randy: Of course not. I’m saying that good intentions or not (and I’m dubious about Bush’s intentions), the United States was not intended to be the world’s police force. Nor is it in the world’s best interest to have our intelligence forces mucking around in Third World countries trying to (and often achieving) régime change due to political expediency. Iraq is first a UN problem. If Iraq doesn’t comply, then I think that the United States has the right to go back in and make them comply. I do not think it is our right to effect regime change. That is an incredibly dangerous policy that will surely come back to bite us on the butt.
Randy: "We are saying that we can’t be bothered to vote."
Konrad: I voted. Those who care and are informed voted. You probably voted. I don't want anyone else who does not care or is uninformed to.
Randy: Then you’re not one of the people I’m talking about. When only 30% or less of voters turn out to vote, I have to think that democracy is in trouble.
Randy: We can’t be bothered to educate ourselves.
Konrad: The education systems here in the US and the open media seem to be far above and beyond those in Iraq or third world nations. We wouldn't be having this dialogue in many other nations. Open up your mind, you have an opportunity, other don't. You need to think outside of the US perspective.
Randy: You’re confusing the issue. I’m not saying that we don’t have an adequate education system. I’m saying that the masses in the United States are not inclined to educate themselves – not just by going to school, but by being engaged in the civic process. Democracy can’t work with an uneducated, uninvolved public. When we allow ourselves to be uninformed, we put ourselves at the mercy of politicians, and a democracy is not a good place for blind faith.
Randy: We can’t be bothered to be engaged in the democratic process.
Konrad: The senate will vote, other nations may express their opinions and can even sanction or take action to defend Iraq or other nations if they like, they are free to do that, that's the ultimate democracy. You're free to go to Iraq and join the National Guard or Green Peace, or The Peace Corps too.
Randy: I’m talking in general about the American public. When only 30% of people show up to vote (or less) it doesn’t matter what democratic resources and institutions are available.
Randy: We could follow the ideals of our founding fathers. That would be a start.
Konrad: Our founding fathers killed British and Confederates to ensure the safety and freedom of a nation.
Randy: I’m certainly not saying that we shouldn’t act when there’s a clear and present danger to the Republic. I served. I would have fought, even though I loath the thought, but I loath the thought of losing my country even more. But before we go shooting, let’s make sure that there’s a clear and present danger. I think that Iraq is a clear danger, and must be dealt with. But I’m not convinced they are a present danger, which would give us the moral high ground because we would be defending ourselves. This whole preemptive strike business is a highly dangerous policy that should be deeply debated. Why Iraq? Why now? I’m suspicious of the answers.
Kornad: I will draw from my interpretation of babylon 5 and the shadow war. The shadows are one extreme. They represent progress through destruction and struggle. The parallel to the real world would be Germany in the 40's, or the British colonies ruled by the king/queen, or Dictators who use an iron fist. The Vorlons are the pacifists like the Tibetans or Quakers. People rose up to stop Germany for their evils. The Tibetans are doomed because they don't have a home anymore. Their way will die out because they are unwilling to defend it. The quakers are lucky they are in a protective and tolerant nation, otherwise they to would be doomed, we do their dirty work for them. So any progress they make towards piece those groups make is only snuffed out because they can't defend their way.
Randy: I think you’ve got the Vorlons wrong. I think they were about absolute control. The ultimate Big Brother. And they were about evolution through structure, rather than through chaos. They weren’t servile Quakers.
Konrad: There needs to be a medium, a Grey area, and that is where the United States tries it's best to stand. Promoting freedom and democracy in Afghanistan and around the world, and at the same time defending itself against threats by use of force and military might if negotiation fails or wallows.
Randy: With this I can agree.
Konrad: BOTH peace nicks and warmongers are a danger to the human race. We are still animals like it or not, there are still limited resources and a need for food and sex and there are other animals of our own kind trying to kill us. The job of a good human is to live as altruistically as possible but to survive and pass on those altruism's to the next generation. If a WOMD goes off in your city you don't live, and the next generation doesn't learn from you.
Randy: I agree that extremism can be a problem. On the other hand, one mans extremism is another man’s evolutionary thought. Society needs to be conservative in order to provide stability. It’s the job of the people to come up with the radical ideas that move humanity forward. The tension between society and heretics is therefore healthy. If we had only conformity, all progress would end in a static situation. If we had only non-conformity, all progress would end in chaos. The reason that B5 was the time of humans and the Shadows and Vorlons had to leave, was because humans are in-between chaos and structure, and there is more evolutionary energy in the dynamic alchemy that make us humans what we are, than in either of their extremes.
Konrad: Look at your own life before you point to me. I've worked with poor nations indirectly on their economic government policies, I've joined moderate ecological causes, I do cleanups, and vote to create taxes that force non-commercial SUV drivers to pay for the extra pollution they force on the rest of us. I believe in unlocking the hands of innovative business but holding them accountable for their actions. I tried to join the military to go overseas and fight for the freedoms of this nation and perhaps to create freedoms in others. Every step of my life I have helped myself first then have tied to help others as much as possible.
Randy: I wasn’t pointing at you. You’re above paragraph sets you apart from the target of my rant.
Konrad: That why when the plane is going down they tell you to put your mask on first, then help the people around you.
Between the Candle and the Dark… Do good, but survive. Iraq presents a danger to the survival of my nation. If my nation crumbles it's ideals fade away.
Randy: Iraq does indeed present a danger. And I don’t think that we shouldn’t act. I just don’t believe that régime change is our right. Now, forcing them to conform to their agreements after the Gulf War – I believe we have the high ground in helping them with that – after the UN tries to achieve success.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 10-02-2002).]
Re Randy's part about education. My whole family is in education (my father is a teacher, my mom's a high school counsoler, I'm a high school student, my sister is a student, my grandparents were teachers, ect). The sad fact of the matter is that people are lethargic and have an I dont care attitude toward learning in America. I dont know exactly what causes it, but it needs to be changed. Sure, kids dont generally want to learn, but there has to be a way to fix it(besides super stress that SOME asian countries/parents put on their kids).
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
It's similar here. Kids just don't seem to care about learning.
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[url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Never eat anything bigger than your own head.[/url]
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
This has been the case for as long as I can remember, and I'm not young.
What dismays me even more than kids who would rather not study is a kind of anti-intellectualism, or distrust of intellectualism among the adult masses. I see an "I don't want to know any more" attitude, or "The less I know the better".
While some intellectuals deserve their ivory tower reputations, and the reputation for not having much common sense, an overall dismissal of an educated mind is another form of bigotry – a broad generalization automatically accepted by closed minds.
This anti-formal education attitude also seems to extend to a willingness not to be self-informed about complicated international relations or social and economic issues here at home.
I suspect this anti-intellectual bias is passed down from generation to generation in some areas of the country. It’s a copout that allows a justification for the intellectually lazy.
The intellectually lazy and uninformed are easily taken advantage of by politicians.
This is, of course, not conducive to a healthy democracy.
I know that a lot of people have a hard enough time just trying to make ends meet, but as difficult as it may be to find the extra time to be informed, it's necessary, because democracy won't take care of itself. We'll lose it if we're not vigilant.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 10-04-2002).]
Highschool students don't like to learn about their country's history because it teaches them trivia. If it were to teach something like geopolitical dynamics or the machinations of Western media then you would have some takers.
As for Babylon 5:
Shadow/Capitalist Philosophy: Strength through Natural Selection
The U.S. is the ultimate capitalist nation of current times
Vorlon/Leninist Philosophy: Strength through social rigidity
The U.S.S.R was the ultimate Leninist nation of current times
The Shadow-Vorlon conflict until 'endgame' bore half a resemblance to the U.S.-U.S.S.R. conflict in that the prior was an ideological conflict of benevolent intent whereas the latter was an ideological conflict for the priveleged, respectively.
I should say that there is even a similar gap in technology. The Shadows have agile, virtually crewless or crewless, and grav-drive equipped combat ships while the Vorlons have lumbering, crewed, outdated anti-matter drive equipped combat ships. Compare this to the technological gap of U.S. and U.S.S.R. conventional military forces. Remember that the Vorlons have equal combat tech to the Shadow's while the U.S.S.R. could procure any type of U.S. military research data. Interesting, no?
I[nter]S[tellar]A[lliance]: Democratic council of national representatives. Sounds a lot like a U.N. that actually works doesn't it? The big five (Narn, Centauri, Human, Vorlon and Minbari) that sit at the front of Babylon 5's council chambers behind the big table would be akin to the U.N. Security Council.
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 10-04-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 10-04-2002).]
[quote]Originally posted by Faylorn:
[b]The Shadows have agile, virtually crewless or crewless, and grav-drive equipped combat ships while the Vorlons have lumbering, crewed, outdated anti-matter drive equipped combat ships. [/b][/quote]
The vorlons DID NOT have "lumbering, crewed, outdated" ships!!
Vorlon ships were not agile, were crewed and had anti-matter drives, an outdated mode of transportation compared to grav-drive. I did not say Vorlon ships wered completely outdated. Systems like weapons, armor and power generation seem comparable. However, their ships are slightly behind in other areas technologically though it reasons that Vorlon and Shadow technological capacity is equal. Perhaps this is a cultural thing.
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
Comments
You can choose for yourself whether to ignore this as an Israeli fabrication or not but this is 'damning' to say the least.
Here is a small article, the news report had much more of substance. I'm trying to find a transcript of the whole report right now. If true this is going to rock things for certain. [url="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/27/60minutes/main523604.shtml"]http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/27/60minutes/main523604.shtml[/url]
Still, I wouldn't be surprised.
Interesting, since the U.S. now seems to be snuggling up to Iran because it's strategically convenient at the moment.
…just like another administration snuggled up to Iraq when Iran was the bad guy.
The idea that Saddam may give weapons of mass destruction to terrorists bent on harming the United States is indeed a chilling concern.
Yet the question remains – how much and what kind of proof do we need to forcibly effect régime change in another nation? I continue to be troubled by the question and many of the possible answers. I’m troubled by the implications.
If the Israeli intelligence turns out to be valid, I think it adds weight to this administrations arguments for war. But if the U.S. continues to take advantage of Iranian “hospitality” during the confrontation, the hypocrisy will be loud and clear.
The following article is interesting in light of this discussion:
[url="http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020927-500715.htm"]http://www.washtimes.com/national/20020927-500715.htm[/url]
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 09-30-2002).]
Thats why was going on is alot of work with Iranian dissident movements and more "progressive" types, who are struggling to gain control for the parliment and take it away from the religious leaders
No abortion, criminlizing homosexuality, and talk about bringing back the patriarchy.
Ive seen reports, but nothing substantial, that alot of young girls who are run aways and or are missing in Europe and the US are actualy removed through slavery rings and sold to Saudi princes. Its just a acusation now, but if that turns out to be true, that alone is justification for a decleration of war against Saudi Arabia, forget the oil, that kind of stuff is just barbaric and should be stamped out on general principles
And as for the Israeli intelligence, hell everybody has been saying the same thing for years! especialy about Iraq and Iran! god, we have known Iranian military units have been running around in Lebannon for years!
I have a sneaking suspicion the Israeli opening the documents to 60 minutes was only the tip of the iceburg, they are going to start making all of that stuff public, and Its a good thing, because then we will have a better idea of the truth about all sides
[This message has been edited by Tyvar (edited 09-30-2002).]
Those who rule and run governments in those countries are not stupid. Some actually have quite brilliant minds. Because they don't think exactly like we do, or hold the same religious or moral values is what scares us the most, and maybe for good reason.
While we argue and bicker over this story and that story, somewhere in a mountain side, it's biz as usual on something that won't see the light of day for years to come.
They don't give away their best secrets. They create and give away things that we are looking to hear. Meanwhile, the real stuff goes unnoticed.
My bet is that those 200 missing Ukrainian nukes are within Saddam's control, totally unnoticed, while we bicker over all these smaller issues.
Some morning, when our watch is at it's lowest head count, the morning sky will be filled with fire above one or more of our cities.
Make no mistake, they hate the US, and that includes the civilians they feel are funding and supporting the "American Régime".
I can no longer see a possibility of peace, and more frighteningly, I do see the possibility of an individual or select group of individuals taking it totally away from the world.
Call me paranoid, but it has happened before. The maddness of Hitler spread faster than anyone thought possible. As those who were once thought to be pillars of sanity fell to it's spread.
I hope I'm wrong really, but... It's usually every man for himself that comes into priority during times like this, and it rarely groups people of power into an organization that brings peace. King Arthur and the Round Table are a myth.
Let's take out everyone who may be a threat.
Shoot first, ask questions later.
Great philosophy, cowboy.
Having said that, maybe it's come to this. When a small group of terrorists have catastrophic potential, maybe there is no other philosophy – survival is the name of the game. He who shoots first remains standing.
If that's true, I can say that I'm not too proud of what humanity has come to.
Great place to live. Well worth fighting for.
I know, I know. I hear, “Get over it. That’s the future, baby. Stick your romantic, politically correct, compassionate, utopianism where the sun don’t shine.”
At least it won’t be too long before it’s not very hard to find a place where the sun doesn’t shine – anywhere on planet Earth will do.
You see, I don’t think it’s about Saddam or terrorists. I think it’s about oil – oil and maintaining a materialistic way of life that depends upon the abuse of our environment and the exploitation of everyone who’s not part of the elite.
This war is a con. Follow the money.
Being a dissenting voice is like pissing into the wind.
The sheep are in the chute.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 10-01-2002).]
[b]Proof be damned.
Let's take out everyone who may be a threat.
Shoot first, ask questions later.
Great philosophy, cowboy.
Having said that, maybe it's come to this. When a small group of terrorists have catastrophic potential, maybe there is no other philosophy ? survival is the name of the game. He who shoots first remains standing.
[/b][/quote]
Well Randy... I didn't say take em out premptively, I'm just saying that's what scares me...
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/wink.gif[/img]
Again, I really don't see a way out. We're headed for a bad time any way you look at it.
GWB and Co. may be after the Oil control, but it still doesn't remove or cancel the fact that Saddam and those like him ARE a threat, to the peace of the world.
I don't know what the answer is really...
... my head hurts...
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[url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Never eat anything bigger than your own head.[/url]
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
"Happiness is Earth in your rear-view mirror."
I'm in!
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We are here to place President Grenewetzki under arrest!
It's a shame, really. Humankind has great potential. We, of all beasts, have choice in the matter, and the ability to effect change. But if we allow fear to steer our course, we squander our chance to become something more than any other frightened creature, hiding in a dark corner, ready to strike at whatever moves.
It is true that the world is a dangerous place. It is true that Saddam is a threat. I'm just saying that how we chose to behave in the face of danger is a window into who we really are.
Will we chose to be productive, or destructive? Will we chose greed or altruism? Will we be tolerant or intolerant? Will we see only "kill or be killed", or will we be cleverer than that?
The United States has the opportunity to use its power to lead by example. What kind of an example? What do our actions say to the rest of the world? We must remember that the world hears not one voice from America, but many – the voice of our political leaders, the voice of gigantic corporations, the voice of the citizens. What are we saying?
We are saying that we support business and greed over ecology and democracy. We are saying that we think it’s okay for our corporations to brow-beat Third World countries. We are saying that it’s okay for the United States to force its will on the rest of the world. We are saying that we can’t be bothered to vote. We can’t be bothered to educate ourselves. We can’t be bothered to be engaged in the democratic process. But boy do we nonetheless have a lot of opinions and the arrogance of the blessed.
What could we say instead? We could follow the ideals of our founding fathers. That would be a start. We could each strive to be the best of what human potential has to offer. This example would say something worth listening to.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 10-01-2002).]
Problem is, even if the US goes isolationist, the amount of wars around the world will probably increase, not decrease.
Konrad: Work and Creation (a.k.a. business) leads to new technology which leads less reliance on natural resources. Don't kill off the next wave of renewable resources that is just around the corner by hurting western economy by playing philanthropist with the rest of the world, yet. The time for that will come. Iraq was the nation that set oil fields on fire and created a massive oil slick in the gulf killing innumerable animals on purpose.
Randy "We are saying that we think it’s okay for our corporations to brow-beat Third World countries."
Konrad: It would be a disaster for the rest of the world to 'catch up' tomorrow, there are not enough resources on the planet with their massive overpopulation. In fact western companies going into developing nations help the standard of living, education, and medicine. Even if the work conditions are difficult by your standards it's opening up new opportunities and education for them. Renewable technology will be a god send for the whole planet but it will not come soon enough if the western economies crash now.
Randy "We are saying that it’s okay for the United States to force its will on the rest of the world."
Konrad: When a hand full of lunatics dictators and terrorists have the ability and the notion to level city blocks and perhaps use nuclear and biological weapons there will be no world that you would want to live in left for anyone. Are you saying it's okay to sit by while other totalitarian nations strangle their own people to the point where they can't possible fight for themselves?
Randy: "We are saying that we can’t be bothered to vote."
Konrad: I voted. Those who care and are informed voted. You probably voted. I don't want anyone else who does not care or is uninformed to.
Randy: We can’t be bothered to educate ourselves.
Konrad: The education systems here in the US and the open media seem to be far above and beyond those in Iraq or third world nations. We wouldn't be having this dialogue in many other nations. Open up your mind, you have an opportunity, other don't. You need to think outside of the US perspective.
Randy: We can’t be bothered to be engaged in the democratic process.
Konrad: The senate will vote, other nations may express their opinions and can even sanction or take action to defend Iraq or other nations if they like, they are free to do that, that's the ultimate democracy. You're free to go to Iraq and join the National Guard or Green Peace, or The Peace Corps too.
Randy: We could follow the ideals of our founding fathers. That would be a start.
Konrad: Our founding fathers killed British and Confederates to ensure the safety and freedom of a nation.
Kornad: I will draw from my interpretation of babylon 5 and the shadow war. The shadows are one extreme. They represent progress through destruction and struggle. The parallel to the real world would be Germany in the 40's, or the British colonies ruled by the king/queen, or Dictators who use an iron fist. The Vorlons are the pacifists like the Tibetans or Quakers. People rose up to stop Germany for their evils. The Tibetans are doomed because they don't have a home anymore. Their way will die out because they are unwilling to defend it. The quakers are lucky they are in a protective and tolerant nation, otherwise they to would be doomed, we do their dirty work for them. So any progress they make towards piece those groups make is only snuffed out because they can't defend their way.
There needs to be a medium, a Grey area, and that is where the United States tries it's best to stand. Promoting freedom and democracy in Afghanistan and around the world, and at the same time defending itself against threats by use of force and military might if negotiation fails or wallows.
BOTH peace nicks and warmongers are a danger to the human race. We are still animals like it or not, there are still limited resources and a need for food and sex and there are other animals of our own kind trying to kill us. The job of a good human is to live as altruistically as possible but to survive and pass on those altruism's to the next generation. If a WOMD goes off in your city you don't live, and the next generation doesn't learn from you.
Look at your own life before you point to me. I've worked with poor nations indirectly on their economic government policies, I've joined moderate ecological causes, I do cleanups, and vote to create taxes that force non-commercial SUV drivers to pay for the extra pollution they force on the rest of us. I believe in unlocking the hands of innovative business but holding them accountable for their actions. I tried to join the military to go overseas and fight for the freedoms of this nation and perhaps to create freedoms in others. Every step of my life I have helped myself first then have tied to help others as much as possible.
That why when the plane is going down they tell you to put your mask on first, then help the people around you.
Between the Candle and the Dark… Do good, but survive. Iraq presents a danger to the survival of my nation. If my nation crumbles it's ideals fade away.
[This message has been edited by Konrad (edited 10-01-2002).]
[b]So, Randy... care to join me on the first ship off this rock?
[/b][/quote]
If your selling tickets count me in!!! [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
Maybe we can go out into the univerce and find some intelligent life [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/rolleyes.gif[/img]
Argone
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[b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
Konrad: Work and Creation (a.k.a. business) leads to new technology which leads less reliance on natural resources. Don't kill off the next wave of renewable resources that is just around the corner by hurting western economy by playing philanthropist with the rest of the world, yet. The time for that will come. Iraq was the nation that set oil fields on fire and created a massive oil slick in the gulf killing innumerable animals on purpose.
Randy: I’m not talking about all work and creation. I’m talking about mammoth corporations that have an inordinate amount of lobbying power, and who are able to stand in the way of sound ecological policies in order to help maximize profits until the point where a handful of the largest economies in the world are those of corporations (!) – not countries. These same giant corporations stand in the way of innovation and industry built upon renewable, non-polluting resources for the purpose of raking in more money and power based on the use of oil and other outmoded and undesirable (harmful chemical) industries.
Randy "We are saying that we think it’s okay for our corporations to brow-beat Third World countries."
Konrad: It would be a disaster for the rest of the world to 'catch up' tomorrow, there are not enough resources on the planet with their massive overpopulation. In fact western companies going into developing nations help the standard of living, education, and medicine. Even if the work conditions are difficult by your standards it's opening up new opportunities and education for them. Renewable technology will be a god send for the whole planet but it will not come soon enough if the western economies crash now.
Randy: It would be wonderful if this watered-down version of reality were true. Unfortunately what we have is oil company running amok in Third World countries, ruining ecologies, and forcing indigenous people from their ancestral homes without any alternative way of making a living. We have power companies forcing India to build a dam and power plant that turns out to be less than useful, when India could have had its own people build something better, if not for political pressure. We have a mammoth chemical plant blow up, gassing hundreds if not thousands of people. I wish my brain were good enough to remember the specifics, but these are things that have actually happened, and continue to happen, in India, South America, and Africa.
Randy "We are saying that it’s okay for the United States to force its will on the rest of the world."
Konrad: When a hand full of lunatics dictators and terrorists have the ability and the notion to level city blocks and perhaps use nuclear and biological weapons there will be no world that you would want to live in left for anyone. Are you saying it's okay to sit by while other totalitarian nations strangle their own people to the point where they can't possible fight for themselves?
Randy: Of course not. I’m saying that good intentions or not (and I’m dubious about Bush’s intentions), the United States was not intended to be the world’s police force. Nor is it in the world’s best interest to have our intelligence forces mucking around in Third World countries trying to (and often achieving) régime change due to political expediency. Iraq is first a UN problem. If Iraq doesn’t comply, then I think that the United States has the right to go back in and make them comply. I do not think it is our right to effect regime change. That is an incredibly dangerous policy that will surely come back to bite us on the butt.
Randy: "We are saying that we can’t be bothered to vote."
Konrad: I voted. Those who care and are informed voted. You probably voted. I don't want anyone else who does not care or is uninformed to.
Randy: Then you’re not one of the people I’m talking about. When only 30% or less of voters turn out to vote, I have to think that democracy is in trouble.
Randy: We can’t be bothered to educate ourselves.
Konrad: The education systems here in the US and the open media seem to be far above and beyond those in Iraq or third world nations. We wouldn't be having this dialogue in many other nations. Open up your mind, you have an opportunity, other don't. You need to think outside of the US perspective.
Randy: You’re confusing the issue. I’m not saying that we don’t have an adequate education system. I’m saying that the masses in the United States are not inclined to educate themselves – not just by going to school, but by being engaged in the civic process. Democracy can’t work with an uneducated, uninvolved public. When we allow ourselves to be uninformed, we put ourselves at the mercy of politicians, and a democracy is not a good place for blind faith.
Randy: We can’t be bothered to be engaged in the democratic process.
Konrad: The senate will vote, other nations may express their opinions and can even sanction or take action to defend Iraq or other nations if they like, they are free to do that, that's the ultimate democracy. You're free to go to Iraq and join the National Guard or Green Peace, or The Peace Corps too.
Randy: I’m talking in general about the American public. When only 30% of people show up to vote (or less) it doesn’t matter what democratic resources and institutions are available.
Randy: We could follow the ideals of our founding fathers. That would be a start.
Konrad: Our founding fathers killed British and Confederates to ensure the safety and freedom of a nation.
Randy: I’m certainly not saying that we shouldn’t act when there’s a clear and present danger to the Republic. I served. I would have fought, even though I loath the thought, but I loath the thought of losing my country even more. But before we go shooting, let’s make sure that there’s a clear and present danger. I think that Iraq is a clear danger, and must be dealt with. But I’m not convinced they are a present danger, which would give us the moral high ground because we would be defending ourselves. This whole preemptive strike business is a highly dangerous policy that should be deeply debated. Why Iraq? Why now? I’m suspicious of the answers.
Kornad: I will draw from my interpretation of babylon 5 and the shadow war. The shadows are one extreme. They represent progress through destruction and struggle. The parallel to the real world would be Germany in the 40's, or the British colonies ruled by the king/queen, or Dictators who use an iron fist. The Vorlons are the pacifists like the Tibetans or Quakers. People rose up to stop Germany for their evils. The Tibetans are doomed because they don't have a home anymore. Their way will die out because they are unwilling to defend it. The quakers are lucky they are in a protective and tolerant nation, otherwise they to would be doomed, we do their dirty work for them. So any progress they make towards piece those groups make is only snuffed out because they can't defend their way.
Randy: I think you’ve got the Vorlons wrong. I think they were about absolute control. The ultimate Big Brother. And they were about evolution through structure, rather than through chaos. They weren’t servile Quakers.
Konrad: There needs to be a medium, a Grey area, and that is where the United States tries it's best to stand. Promoting freedom and democracy in Afghanistan and around the world, and at the same time defending itself against threats by use of force and military might if negotiation fails or wallows.
Randy: With this I can agree.
Konrad: BOTH peace nicks and warmongers are a danger to the human race. We are still animals like it or not, there are still limited resources and a need for food and sex and there are other animals of our own kind trying to kill us. The job of a good human is to live as altruistically as possible but to survive and pass on those altruism's to the next generation. If a WOMD goes off in your city you don't live, and the next generation doesn't learn from you.
Randy: I agree that extremism can be a problem. On the other hand, one mans extremism is another man’s evolutionary thought. Society needs to be conservative in order to provide stability. It’s the job of the people to come up with the radical ideas that move humanity forward. The tension between society and heretics is therefore healthy. If we had only conformity, all progress would end in a static situation. If we had only non-conformity, all progress would end in chaos. The reason that B5 was the time of humans and the Shadows and Vorlons had to leave, was because humans are in-between chaos and structure, and there is more evolutionary energy in the dynamic alchemy that make us humans what we are, than in either of their extremes.
Konrad: Look at your own life before you point to me. I've worked with poor nations indirectly on their economic government policies, I've joined moderate ecological causes, I do cleanups, and vote to create taxes that force non-commercial SUV drivers to pay for the extra pollution they force on the rest of us. I believe in unlocking the hands of innovative business but holding them accountable for their actions. I tried to join the military to go overseas and fight for the freedoms of this nation and perhaps to create freedoms in others. Every step of my life I have helped myself first then have tied to help others as much as possible.
Randy: I wasn’t pointing at you. You’re above paragraph sets you apart from the target of my rant.
Konrad: That why when the plane is going down they tell you to put your mask on first, then help the people around you.
Between the Candle and the Dark… Do good, but survive. Iraq presents a danger to the survival of my nation. If my nation crumbles it's ideals fade away.
Randy: Iraq does indeed present a danger. And I don’t think that we shouldn’t act. I just don’t believe that régime change is our right. Now, forcing them to conform to their agreements after the Gulf War – I believe we have the high ground in helping them with that – after the UN tries to achieve success.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 10-02-2002).]
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[url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]Never eat anything bigger than your own head.[/url]
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
education.
What I mean is they see people they know graduate from collage and end up working at
Micky"D"s or worse no job at all.
Then you have your select few who just use
education for a free ride.
Argone
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[b]4 Thousand Throats can be cut in one night by a running Warrior[/b]
What dismays me even more than kids who would rather not study is a kind of anti-intellectualism, or distrust of intellectualism among the adult masses. I see an "I don't want to know any more" attitude, or "The less I know the better".
While some intellectuals deserve their ivory tower reputations, and the reputation for not having much common sense, an overall dismissal of an educated mind is another form of bigotry – a broad generalization automatically accepted by closed minds.
This anti-formal education attitude also seems to extend to a willingness not to be self-informed about complicated international relations or social and economic issues here at home.
I suspect this anti-intellectual bias is passed down from generation to generation in some areas of the country. It’s a copout that allows a justification for the intellectually lazy.
The intellectually lazy and uninformed are easily taken advantage of by politicians.
This is, of course, not conducive to a healthy democracy.
I know that a lot of people have a hard enough time just trying to make ends meet, but as difficult as it may be to find the extra time to be informed, it's necessary, because democracy won't take care of itself. We'll lose it if we're not vigilant.
[This message has been edited by Randy (edited 10-04-2002).]
As for Babylon 5:
Shadow/Capitalist Philosophy: Strength through Natural Selection
The U.S. is the ultimate capitalist nation of current times
Vorlon/Leninist Philosophy: Strength through social rigidity
The U.S.S.R was the ultimate Leninist nation of current times
The Shadow-Vorlon conflict until 'endgame' bore half a resemblance to the U.S.-U.S.S.R. conflict in that the prior was an ideological conflict of benevolent intent whereas the latter was an ideological conflict for the priveleged, respectively.
I should say that there is even a similar gap in technology. The Shadows have agile, virtually crewless or crewless, and grav-drive equipped combat ships while the Vorlons have lumbering, crewed, outdated anti-matter drive equipped combat ships. Compare this to the technological gap of U.S. and U.S.S.R. conventional military forces. Remember that the Vorlons have equal combat tech to the Shadow's while the U.S.S.R. could procure any type of U.S. military research data. Interesting, no?
I[nter]S[tellar]A[lliance]: Democratic council of national representatives. Sounds a lot like a U.N. that actually works doesn't it? The big five (Narn, Centauri, Human, Vorlon and Minbari) that sit at the front of Babylon 5's council chambers behind the big table would be akin to the U.N. Security Council.
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 10-04-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Faylorn (edited 10-04-2002).]
[b]The Shadows have agile, virtually crewless or crewless, and grav-drive equipped combat ships while the Vorlons have lumbering, crewed, outdated anti-matter drive equipped combat ships. [/b][/quote]
The vorlons DID NOT have "lumbering, crewed, outdated" ships!!
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[url="http://www.zmag.org"][i]Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.[/i][/url]
"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he eats for a life time. But teach a man to BE a fish, and he can eat himself."
--Dennis Miller, Dennis Miller Live