[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]one membership fee of $20 US
one Tshirt $20 US
one lapel badge $ 7.50 US
the dividends from postage and handling and other gear brings it up to Fifty bucks...[/b][/quote]
Minus the cost of producing those items and shiping...will probably drop you back down to near single digits.
[quote][b]50 x 1000members ( remove smurfs,undedicated,dirt poor etc )[/b][/quote]
IMO, you wouldn't get anywhere near 1000 people willing to spend $50 to run the FirstOnes site. You'd be lucky to get 25, let alone 100.
[quote]Originally posted by DsDetective:
[b]I'm a trainee chartered accountant with one of the 'Big 5' global firms (Deloitte and Touche) and do a lot of work with small owner run businesses and associations.[/b][/quote]
Really? My sister is a senior level accountant there (she's probably near enough to making partner, sooner or later). It would be ironic if you worked for her [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
for cryin out loud..... listen.. the goal is fund raising.... formal organization....
blowing up Sierra is not likely nor is it a goal.... producing the game they very much want to bury is revenge enough...
and as far as merchndise goes.... its all too easy to avoid copyright infringment.. besides which.. can you see JMS jackbooting us for trying to make a game about his universe ?
Not to mention disclaming the hell out of everything.... AND the whole idea for the club is for it to be NOT-FOR-PROFIT.... as long as we do not pollute canon... make no money from our efforts.. we are free to do the whatever the hell we like....
sheesh.... the actual company that makes the game can and very much should be a separate entity.... and Firstones can donate to that Studio or 'commericial body' if it sees fit...otherwise they can just promote like buggery any efforts such a firm may make.. do beta testing... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc...... sigh....
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]... as long as we do not pollute canon... make no money from our efforts.. we are free to do the whatever the hell we like....[/b][/quote]
And then the horde of lawyers kick down the doors, stuff you into a bag, kick dome the doors which have not been kicked down (just for the heck of it), and leave. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
how many 'ships' from the Star Trek fan clubs have been boarded by the Paramount Collective and 'assimilated' ? hmmm ? Paramount are famous for having pit bull lawyers and yet the Trek movement is as strong as ever.
What do you fear boys and girls ? Lawyers or is it just fear itself ?
Sanfam has a valid point... who the hell pays for the bandwidth,hosting and domain name registration ? hmmmm.... alot of you went apeshit when the domain regisisty pulled the name off the door and you couldn't get here. Funny how you can expect it always to be here and yet only perhaps two or three of us actually cough up....
Life isn't free. You pay for everything... in cash or karma...
and I'd hazard a guess and say a good deal of you are in the red on your karmic bank statements out there in the ether. Drazi guy, Biggles, Sanfam etc prolly have five figures, but not a cracker to thier names here on this plane.
I've said it plenty of times before. I'd be willing to cough the sticker price of a boxed premium game to a body who wants to make the game or will be responsible for making the game happen some how.
Even you so called poor students and the fellows living 'behind god's back' as a Finnish bloke I know told me, would donate a kidney for a shrink wrapped ITF box.
What's the freakin difference ? hmmmm ? some time and some faith.
And the excess? Paying for the website is nice, but any extra will have to go to something, and considering the fact that we're a fan club for a poduct that will likely never exist, spread out over six continants, there arn't too many things we can do. You seem to want this group to have power, but have no clear idea what to do with that power. This is not a good combanation.
Figure some benift out. Raffles, meetings, presentations, I don't care. But don't dare think that haveing some spare change is going to convince Serria to give us one bit of data.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Lots of "ships" have been boarded by Paramount. And they have all been shut down. Which is exactly the problem.
They have lots of ships that can be boarded. We have one and only one. Their community is a lot larger with huge numbers of web sites.
------------------
[b]Required reading: [url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
If that was posted on my (stratics) forums.....
What I'm saying is this. Many of us are here because it's an open community. Shut it, via forcing everyone to pay, and another open one will form. Which is bad, as there is much strength in large numbers.
Now, allow people to contribute what they like, when they like, but leaving the community open, will work the best.
What we fear is loosing this place, our last, best hope of a Babylon 5 game.
INHO, excess for this site, if it were ever to happen, would be put into a bank account and saved up for future expenses. I don't know about SB's idea, though.
I just cannot believe in the idea of FO as a corporate entity. It does not seem like it would work. There are too many problems.
And yes, paramount has gone after various fansites for various reasons. It's just too small to notice due to the stated size of the trek fanatacism.
the 'fiscal enitity', 'club' whatever does not have to have anymore than an affiliation to this site. NO LEGALLY 'attaching' strings at all. In fact whack disclaimers on the bottom of both this board and the new 'clubs' communication stating... we dont know each other... if the paranoia is that strong.
We can have a Mimibari caste system if you will....
the worker caste build the game - the developers
the religious caste is this very board
the warrior caste is the club ( pardon the pun)
Now only we will know of the affilations between us.... we can maintain friendly ties but have no more to do with each other than say three delis in the same town. It should be that way. I dont want to see anyone shut out, those who want to stay 'preachers' so to speak.. well good luck to them and they are welcome as they have always been. Some of us prefer action and conviction, warriors.... and we have no outlet. I can build a club locally, but the hedfux involved with a US membership just arent worth it.
There needs to be a US Warrior caste Firstone who can take this and run with it. (pardon the tortured analogy, only here would it be understood.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] )
It's not that bloody hard....
it takes some time and a little fiscal commitment to set up, and I doubt anyone would object to thier memberships dues covering the cost of set up.
the club could run on as little as five members ( unless the US rules are different ). The key issue here is the legal processing of funds. Thats about it... it gives this board, the devs/studio a vehicle to work with, to try and raise a little money for stuff like ' printing a business plan on a colour laser copier', 'setting up and establishment costs of a few T shirts' etc etc etc.
If its only a few guys... and the money goes in and out as fast as I expect.. the lawyers can beat down the doors and find six bucks in the clubs account.... and no-one legally accountable for the club... sue the club and it folds like a house of cards..... zero sweat. This is all providing they even bother... and we have actually done something to offend someone.
Money lubes and binds alot of things. Evil shite that it is, we need to be able to put a leash on it and control it. Make it work for us instead of against us.
------------------
[i]"...In the end it would hold because what is built endures. And what is loved endures.
And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures."[/i] -- Delenn in the Babylon 5 episode [i]Rising Star[/i]
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]there is no point in cutting the head of an orgaization that can evapourate like a sunshower...
if lets say we actually form a formal club.... we are likely to have one bank account.. in which is a pittance.... they take us to court on lets say a libel suit or something.... thier lawyers would work for about five seconds before the cost of suing would outweigh any gains theu make... and we simply grow another head.... and keep going...
this is all provided we are silly enough to actually screw up and say the wrong thing.... or do something stupid to which we can be linked....
I'd like to see any lawyer prove that one persons actions may be linked to a club like this may be...
the likely hood of anyone facing anymore than a wrist slap is extremely tiny....
the benefits of clubmanship far outweigh the possible detractions....[/b][/quote]
The legal issues that surround what you are proposing are...sticky...at best.
for starters: If it's a nonprofit orginization, you're tax exempt in the US, but this wouldn't be non-profit, as the aim is to raise capital to create a game. Which you'll sell for profit. And that's only one of the issues.
We looked at this early on. It's just way too messy.
------------------
[i]"...In the end it would hold because what is built endures. And what is loved endures.
And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures."[/i] -- Delenn in the Babylon 5 episode [i]Rising Star[/i]
[quote]Originally posted by shadow boxer:
[b]
.
.
.
and as far as merchndise goes.... its all too easy to avoid copyright infringment.. besides which.. can you see JMS jackbooting us for trying to make a game about his universe ?
.
.
.[/b][/quote]
and if he doesn't, T-W-AOL certainly will, as they are the copyright holder. They aren't in the business to make games, onor are they interested in the noblest of crusades---they want money. Plain and simple.
Remember the Aliens mod someone was woking on for Quake? That's the scenario that created the term "Foxed." And if you get foxed, you're far less likely to get a license later on...
------------------
[i]"...In the end it would hold because what is built endures. And what is loved endures.
And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures."[/i] -- Delenn in the Babylon 5 episode [i]Rising Star[/i]
Comments
[b]one membership fee of $20 US
one Tshirt $20 US
one lapel badge $ 7.50 US
the dividends from postage and handling and other gear brings it up to Fifty bucks...[/b][/quote]
Minus the cost of producing those items and shiping...will probably drop you back down to near single digits.
[quote][b]50 x 1000members ( remove smurfs,undedicated,dirt poor etc )[/b][/quote]
IMO, you wouldn't get anywhere near 1000 people willing to spend $50 to run the FirstOnes site. You'd be lucky to get 25, let alone 100.
[b]I'm a trainee chartered accountant with one of the 'Big 5' global firms (Deloitte and Touche) and do a lot of work with small owner run businesses and associations.[/b][/quote]
Really? My sister is a senior level accountant there (she's probably near enough to making partner, sooner or later). It would be ironic if you worked for her [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img]
blowing up Sierra is not likely nor is it a goal.... producing the game they very much want to bury is revenge enough...
and as far as merchndise goes.... its all too easy to avoid copyright infringment.. besides which.. can you see JMS jackbooting us for trying to make a game about his universe ?
Not to mention disclaming the hell out of everything.... AND the whole idea for the club is for it to be NOT-FOR-PROFIT.... as long as we do not pollute canon... make no money from our efforts.. we are free to do the whatever the hell we like....
sheesh.... the actual company that makes the game can and very much should be a separate entity.... and Firstones can donate to that Studio or 'commericial body' if it sees fit...otherwise they can just promote like buggery any efforts such a firm may make.. do beta testing... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc...... sigh....
turn Firstones into a tiger, rather than a digital ghost of one.
At the moment.. as cheery and cool as it is....it all too often wanders off into feckless gasbag territory
[b]... as long as we do not pollute canon... make no money from our efforts.. we are free to do the whatever the hell we like....[/b][/quote]
And then the horde of lawyers kick down the doors, stuff you into a bag, kick dome the doors which have not been kicked down (just for the heck of it), and leave. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img]
What do you fear boys and girls ? Lawyers or is it just fear itself ?
Sanfam has a valid point... who the hell pays for the bandwidth,hosting and domain name registration ? hmmmm.... alot of you went apeshit when the domain regisisty pulled the name off the door and you couldn't get here. Funny how you can expect it always to be here and yet only perhaps two or three of us actually cough up....
Life isn't free. You pay for everything... in cash or karma...
and I'd hazard a guess and say a good deal of you are in the red on your karmic bank statements out there in the ether. Drazi guy, Biggles, Sanfam etc prolly have five figures, but not a cracker to thier names here on this plane.
I've said it plenty of times before. I'd be willing to cough the sticker price of a boxed premium game to a body who wants to make the game or will be responsible for making the game happen some how.
Even you so called poor students and the fellows living 'behind god's back' as a Finnish bloke I know told me, would donate a kidney for a shrink wrapped ITF box.
What's the freakin difference ? hmmmm ? some time and some faith.
long deep sigh................
Figure some benift out. Raffles, meetings, presentations, I don't care. But don't dare think that haveing some spare change is going to convince Serria to give us one bit of data.
They have lots of ships that can be boarded. We have one and only one. Their community is a lot larger with huge numbers of web sites.
------------------
[b]Required reading: [url="http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/"]http://www.minbari.co.uk/log12.2263/[/url][/b]
Never eat anything bigger than your own head.
The Balance provides. The Balance protects.
"Nonono...Is not [i]Great[/i] Machine. Is...[i]Not[/i]-so-Great Machine. It make good snow cone though." - Zathras
What I'm saying is this. Many of us are here because it's an open community. Shut it, via forcing everyone to pay, and another open one will form. Which is bad, as there is much strength in large numbers.
Now, allow people to contribute what they like, when they like, but leaving the community open, will work the best.
What we fear is loosing this place, our last, best hope of a Babylon 5 game.
I just cannot believe in the idea of FO as a corporate entity. It does not seem like it would work. There are too many problems.
And yes, paramount has gone after various fansites for various reasons. It's just too small to notice due to the stated size of the trek fanatacism.
listen...
the 'fiscal enitity', 'club' whatever does not have to have anymore than an affiliation to this site. NO LEGALLY 'attaching' strings at all. In fact whack disclaimers on the bottom of both this board and the new 'clubs' communication stating... we dont know each other... if the paranoia is that strong.
We can have a Mimibari caste system if you will....
the worker caste build the game - the developers
the religious caste is this very board
the warrior caste is the club ( pardon the pun)
Now only we will know of the affilations between us.... we can maintain friendly ties but have no more to do with each other than say three delis in the same town. It should be that way. I dont want to see anyone shut out, those who want to stay 'preachers' so to speak.. well good luck to them and they are welcome as they have always been. Some of us prefer action and conviction, warriors.... and we have no outlet. I can build a club locally, but the hedfux involved with a US membership just arent worth it.
There needs to be a US Warrior caste Firstone who can take this and run with it. (pardon the tortured analogy, only here would it be understood.. [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/biggrin.gif[/img] )
It's not that bloody hard....
it takes some time and a little fiscal commitment to set up, and I doubt anyone would object to thier memberships dues covering the cost of set up.
the club could run on as little as five members ( unless the US rules are different ). The key issue here is the legal processing of funds. Thats about it... it gives this board, the devs/studio a vehicle to work with, to try and raise a little money for stuff like ' printing a business plan on a colour laser copier', 'setting up and establishment costs of a few T shirts' etc etc etc.
If its only a few guys... and the money goes in and out as fast as I expect.. the lawyers can beat down the doors and find six bucks in the clubs account.... and no-one legally accountable for the club... sue the club and it folds like a house of cards..... zero sweat. This is all providing they even bother... and we have actually done something to offend someone.
Money lubes and binds alot of things. Evil shite that it is, we need to be able to put a leash on it and control it. Make it work for us instead of against us.
[b]For this particular idea I also vote "no" for similar reasons that have been stated already.
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/smile.gif[/img][/b][/quote]
Ditto. Makes politics rear its ugly head.
- [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/vsml.gif[/img]
------------------
[i]"...In the end it would hold because what is built endures. And what is loved endures.
And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures."[/i] -- Delenn in the Babylon 5 episode [i]Rising Star[/i]
[b]there is no point in cutting the head of an orgaization that can evapourate like a sunshower...
if lets say we actually form a formal club.... we are likely to have one bank account.. in which is a pittance.... they take us to court on lets say a libel suit or something.... thier lawyers would work for about five seconds before the cost of suing would outweigh any gains theu make... and we simply grow another head.... and keep going...
this is all provided we are silly enough to actually screw up and say the wrong thing.... or do something stupid to which we can be linked....
I'd like to see any lawyer prove that one persons actions may be linked to a club like this may be...
the likely hood of anyone facing anymore than a wrist slap is extremely tiny....
the benefits of clubmanship far outweigh the possible detractions....[/b][/quote]
The legal issues that surround what you are proposing are...sticky...at best.
for starters: If it's a nonprofit orginization, you're tax exempt in the US, but this wouldn't be non-profit, as the aim is to raise capital to create a game. Which you'll sell for profit. And that's only one of the issues.
We looked at this early on. It's just way too messy.
- [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/vsml.gif[/img]
------------------
[i]"...In the end it would hold because what is built endures. And what is loved endures.
And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures."[/i] -- Delenn in the Babylon 5 episode [i]Rising Star[/i]
[b]
.
.
.
and as far as merchndise goes.... its all too easy to avoid copyright infringment.. besides which.. can you see JMS jackbooting us for trying to make a game about his universe ?
.
.
.[/b][/quote]
[img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/vsml.gif[/img]...yesss... [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/vsml.gif[/img]
and if he doesn't, T-W-AOL certainly will, as they are the copyright holder. They aren't in the business to make games, onor are they interested in the noblest of crusades---they want money. Plain and simple.
Remember the Aliens mod someone was woking on for Quake? That's the scenario that created the term "Foxed." And if you get foxed, you're far less likely to get a license later on...
- [img]http://216.15.145.59/mainforums/vsml.gif[/img]
------------------
[i]"...In the end it would hold because what is built endures. And what is loved endures.
And Babylon 5...Babylon 5 endures."[/i] -- Delenn in the Babylon 5 episode [i]Rising Star[/i]