100% entertainment, as in hardly any relevant thought provoking content or social commentary. In 7 seasons they managed to include a handful of dilemmas, some ethical issues, a singing EMH with mobile holographic emitter and a couple of sexed up borgs.
BTW, I watched the B5 episode where Ivanova fakes having sex with an alien representative right after the Voyager finale. :D Andreas Katsulas was also great in it as well, as always.
[QUOTE=Stingray;195542]I just felt like having a quick scifi fix. Like a bag of potato chips, unadulterated fun. ;) Zero nutritional content, 100% entertainment.[/QUOTE]
Huh, how is watching 150 hrs of Voyager getting a quick scifi fix?
I needed some scifi and I had the opportunity and so I took it. Watching Voyager was a simple solution. I didn't say it was the best solution. I am open to other suggestions of course.
I just fix things, I don't make them look good. ;)
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE=Stingray;195573]I am open to other suggestions of course.[/QUOTE]
HUGE HUGE HUGE Thumbs up for Planetes.
I think that is one of the best looks at near-future sci-fi out there, with an excellent story to boot. The Japanese humor can be a little annoying once in awhile, but as a whole? EXCELLENT!
Ok, I'm going to check out this Planetes series. I suppose it's in Japanese only with English subtitles? This is going to make it a lot more difficult for me to enjoy though. I'd love to learn Kanji, but I don't want to wait that long. The Japanese don't seem to have a word for "space debris!" ;) Cracks me up every time I hear them use Western expressions. :D
Back to the subject of Byron, I too liked the actor more than the character. Robin Atkin Downes seems like a decent guy, and I remember that while the show was being aired, there was some time that he and Patricia Tallman were chatting with fans online, and he was pretty nice to the fans and pretty funny too. Anyway, about what JMS was thinking when he made Byron and the way he was, he reveals in one of the script books that Byron and his followers were pretty heavily based on the religious commune that JMS lived in when younger (some time in the 70's I think), so I'm guessing that Byron's personality was also at least somewhat based on the leaders of the commune. Apparently, the singing that Byron and his followers did in the show was actually taken directly from that commune, and maybe that exact song was something they sang.
While we're talking about B5 again, I was wondering something. So what exactly is going on in the assassination plot in The Gathering? From what I can tell, a faction of Warrior Caste Minbari were involved (Wind Swords I think?), we also see that G'kar and other Narns were involved, and also there were elements in Earth as well (probably related to the Psi Corp/Clark conspiracy). It's been revealed that Laurel Takashima was originally involved as well, with the sleeper "control" in her, but that might have changed when she left the show (by the way, I seem to remember that in one of the script books, JMS said that Takashima was only going to be around for the first season, and that they knew that Tamlyn Tomita was going to only be around for a while because she wanted to do more movies I think, which factored into hiring her. It seems that the first season would have ended with Garibaldi finding out about the assassination plot against Santiago, and Takashima shooting him, with the control perhaps taking total over at that point). I think it's safe to assume that Garibaldi's aide could have been the one to provide Takashima's clearance to the assassin (you can see that when he puts his hand on the scanner before killing Del Varner), and prevented C&C from knowing about the pod that attached to the hull.
So if I get it right, the Minbari assassin was supposed to show up, disguise himself as Sinclair to get close to Kosh, then poison and kill Kosh? The framing of Sinclair was a back up or something? I mean, they're trying to ruin the Babylon Project, right? So Kosh being assassinated would have screwed that up? What exactly is G'kar supposed to be getting out of this? Do the Narns see the Babylon Project as a threat to their expansion? Of course, afterward we see G'kar pretty much using B5 as an excuse to screw the Centauri over again and again and helping the Narns expand. And the human elements in this also don't like the Babylon Project and want it to fail, so they're helping to sabotage it by working with these aliens?
Maybe I've answered by own questions, but am I understanding this all? I remember having the plot expained to me very well on the WB boards years ago, but I started thinking about it today and I'm not sure if I totally get it.
You know, a lot of the background plans in Babylon 5 have given me pause recently. I'm totally at a loss for how the Shadow War was supposed to work. It was some huge affront for the Vorlons to step in, so the Shadows killed Kosh in response, but the Vorlons participated in the previous iteration of the war, and allegedly in all the earlier ones. And why did the Shadows start attacking openly in either war? If the point is to get all the younger races fighting each other, surely making themselves a distinct faction would be counterproductive even if the Vorlon side wasn't trying to organize the younger races into one ordered force. I mean, even if each younger race was at war with every other younger race and the Shadows, that's still military force they're using on the Shadows that they could be focusing on their peers.
I digress. Considering the diversity of factions involved, it's possible we might be able to figure out what each side was getting out of it. My first guess is that Sinclair being convicted for the attack is the primary goal. Takashima doesn't have the original idea to have Kosh scanned, but she does go along with it really easily, and it's possible she would've suggested it sooner or later if Dr. Kyle hadn't or "discovered" some additional evidence.
The human faction (the Psi Corps-led conspiracy) gets Sinclair shitcanned, and they didn't like or trust him thanks to the questions of what happened at the Line, the Minbari getting him placed in charge of B5, and his generally moderate political disposition. They could replace him with someone more friendly to their aims, like Jarhead John Sheridan or Col. Ari Ben Hitler.
The Wind Swords... well, they probably get the exact same thing. They seem to have picked up on the fact that Sinclair had something to do with the Religious Caste sending out the surrender order and robbing them of their glorious victory. Losing their human stooge would also weaken the Religious Caste politically, which fits in with the long-term plan to kick Delenn to the curb and not fight in the Shadow War.
G'Kar probably got a wheelbarrow full of money, and a chance to destabilize the political situation. More wars means more potential for alliances (like the one he ineptly tried to talk Delenn into), more people willing to buy off-brand Centauri weaponry, and more colonies and nonaligned worlds the Narn can invade without too much trouble during the confusion.
Though all this does invite the question of how these disparate groups got to scheming with each other. Mostly the Minbari and Human factions (the Narns could've just been seen as the best accomplices they could hire). I mean, most of their motivation is that each one hates and distrusts the other.
If it wasn't so early, I'd say it sounded like a prime case for a Shadow operation. They could be the intermediaries for both sides, except that Morden apparently didn't leave Z'ha'dum until he showed up at B5. Though, you know, we never did find out exactly how Justin got to Z'ha'dum...
For the first part, the way I see it is this. The Shadows get one of the major races (Narn, Minbari, or Centauri) to start invading and going to war, this scares the other races, and with the threat they get scared, so the Shadows come in (probably with Morden again) and say they'll protect them from the Centauri, but eventually their security leads them to dreams of conquest (probably with Morden approaching other ambitous types in those races) so then they go to war with eachother. Then the Shadows come in and start raising hell.... Um, let's see... It causes chaos? I can't remember how this factors into their grand scheme. Going around attacking former allies will just piss them off and maybe decide to kill the Shadows. Anyone else want to try this one?
Maybe the Narns actually approached the human and Minbari factions and got this all working together. Normally they'd hate eachother, but they see an opportunity to gain, probably thinking they'd eventually screw over the other sides.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE=David of Mac;195724]You know, a lot of the background plans in Babylon 5 have given me pause recently. I'm totally at a loss for how the Shadow War was supposed to work. It was some huge affront for the Vorlons to step in, so the Shadows killed Kosh in response, but the Vorlons participated in the previous iteration of the war, and allegedly in all the earlier ones. And why did the Shadows start attacking openly in either war? If the point is to get all the younger races fighting each other, surely making themselves a distinct faction would be counterproductive even if the Vorlon side wasn't trying to organize the younger races into one ordered force. I mean, even if each younger race was at war with every other younger race and the Shadows, that's still military force they're using on the Shadows that they could be focusing on their peers.[/QUOTE]
The Shadows weren't attacking everyone. They left those they had allied with alone. Their goal was to strengthen the races, not wipe them out nor have them wipe each other out. Other races having to fight their neighbours and the Shadows would theoretically lead to a greater threat and thus greater progress.
[QUOTE=DarthCaligula;195725]Maybe the Narns actually approached the human and Minbari factions and got this all working together. Normally they'd hate eachother, but they see an opportunity to gain, probably thinking they'd eventually screw over the other sides.[/QUOTE]
That makes the most sense, especially since the end of The Gathering paints G'Kar as the puppetmaster when Sinclair confronts him.
[QUOTE=Biggles;195730]The Shadows weren't attacking everyone. They left those they had allied with alone. Their goal was to strengthen the races, not wipe them out nor have them wipe each other out. Other races having to fight their neighbours and the Shadows would theoretically lead to a greater threat and thus greater progress.[/QUOTE]
I suppose that makes sense, though it still leaves the question of how their approaches and the Vorlons' approach were supposed to be competing. They seem more complimentary, especially considering that the Vorlons only show up to start building galactic alliances when the Shadows come around. And the Shadows attacking openly only gives the younger races a common enemy that they could only hope to defend against by working together. But even though the Shadows opened that door themselves by not, well, staying in the shadows, they threw a fit about it, trying to convince Sheridan to just let everyone worry about saving their own skin without working together.
I think my real problem is that I'm trying to square what happened in this Shadow War against Valen's war, and I'm assuming the earlier one was according to the rules, since it didn't spiral out of control with planet killers and death clouds and secret P-30 telepaths meant to... well, there's another question, right there.
Why did the Vorlons need to make Lyta into a telepathic doomsday machine? They had the ability to destroy Z'ha'dum and the Shadows themselves if they really thought it was necessary, so why build a telepathic super weapon? Was she supposed to be used by the Army of Light without being told to by the Vorlons to destroy the Shadows? Would that count as their ideological victory, having the Shadows wiped out by the younger races (along with a few White Stars and telepaths the Vorlons just "accidentally" left where they could be found) while the Vorlons watched from a discreet distance?
But that would mean that the last Shadow War was already supposed to be the last Shadow War, at least from the Vorlons' perspective. For the Shadows, it seemed to be business as usual up until Sheridan bombed Z'ha'dum. Then they suddenly stopped all their attacks, and began hiding ships on different planets, which Morden points out that would've normally happened years later, after they started losing (or "losing") the war. It seemed like the Vorlons were also blindsided by it, since they started destroying Shadow-allied worlds after that, and explicitly said Sheridan's attack was what allowed it. But Kosh planned for Sheridan to go to Z'ha'dum, probably to meet Lorien, and the Vorlons had already modified Lyta years earlier. But later, Ulkesh was keeping her on a very short leash, so she couldn't have been intended to be a gift for the younger races... unless the Vorlons considered Sheridan's attack to be the ideological victory they needed to prove the Shadows wrong, so their prior plans for total victory could be put aside.
So once Sheridan rejected the Shadows' temptation, the Vorlons decided they could rampage through the galaxy, methodically erasing the Shadows from existence, confident that the enemy finally understood that their philosophy had failed and the Vorlons were right about peace and loyalty and self-sacrifice and all that jazz.
Actually Biggles, in Interludes and Examinations the Brakiri ambassador mentions that the Brakiri were allied with the Shadows and started attacking their neighbors, and then the Shadows started attacking them later (after the Vorlons got involved), so the Shadows did start attacking at least some of the races they had supported.
Lyta I think was an experiment. Also, like it's stated, the telepaths were just weapons to the Vorlons, and they probably had some intention of using Lyta for something later on. It actually makes more sense that Ulkesh keeps her on such a tight leash to moniter her and make sure everything's going as planned.
Valen's war against the Shadows is pretty mysterious. The only races we know that Valen worked with were the Minbari, Vorlons, and some various First Ones. What about the other races of that time? How come we don't hear about other spacefaring races that fought in that war? Though there were the "In Valen's Name" comics, which has some race that fought against the Shadows and seemed to pretty much worship Valen, and that fanaticism went way too far (they actually factor into my own theory about what happened to Valen and Delenn). I can't remember, was it only after that war that the Shadows started hiding their ships everywhere, or was that always part of their strategy?
They never said. The implicit Shadow Wars before Valen are an even bigger mystery than that one. The only information we have on those is Delenn's flawed knowledge from season two about the Shadows being the enemy of all, and being separate from the First Ones, and we can't really trust that version.
I don't remember if anyone else was mentioned as being part of Valen's alliance, but the comic did say that one of the future League worlds refused to get involved. And, while it was never said outright, it seems that if it were dramatized, the Narn would have a part to play. The Centauri, too, probably (they had apparently been attacked by the Drakh at some point). Heck, maybe even some medieval humans, given that the Shadows stashed at least two ships on Earth's doorstep.
Comments
BTW, I watched the B5 episode where Ivanova fakes having sex with an alien representative right after the Voyager finale. :D Andreas Katsulas was also great in it as well, as always.
Huh, how is watching 150 hrs of Voyager getting a quick scifi fix?
Jake
I just fix things, I don't make them look good. ;)
[url]http://www.amazon.com/Planetes-Complete-Collection-Joe-Cappelletti/dp/B000HT3876/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343785810&sr=8-1[/url]
I think that is one of the best looks at near-future sci-fi out there, with an excellent story to boot. The Japanese humor can be a little annoying once in awhile, but as a whole? EXCELLENT!
While we're talking about B5 again, I was wondering something. So what exactly is going on in the assassination plot in The Gathering? From what I can tell, a faction of Warrior Caste Minbari were involved (Wind Swords I think?), we also see that G'kar and other Narns were involved, and also there were elements in Earth as well (probably related to the Psi Corp/Clark conspiracy). It's been revealed that Laurel Takashima was originally involved as well, with the sleeper "control" in her, but that might have changed when she left the show (by the way, I seem to remember that in one of the script books, JMS said that Takashima was only going to be around for the first season, and that they knew that Tamlyn Tomita was going to only be around for a while because she wanted to do more movies I think, which factored into hiring her. It seems that the first season would have ended with Garibaldi finding out about the assassination plot against Santiago, and Takashima shooting him, with the control perhaps taking total over at that point). I think it's safe to assume that Garibaldi's aide could have been the one to provide Takashima's clearance to the assassin (you can see that when he puts his hand on the scanner before killing Del Varner), and prevented C&C from knowing about the pod that attached to the hull.
So if I get it right, the Minbari assassin was supposed to show up, disguise himself as Sinclair to get close to Kosh, then poison and kill Kosh? The framing of Sinclair was a back up or something? I mean, they're trying to ruin the Babylon Project, right? So Kosh being assassinated would have screwed that up? What exactly is G'kar supposed to be getting out of this? Do the Narns see the Babylon Project as a threat to their expansion? Of course, afterward we see G'kar pretty much using B5 as an excuse to screw the Centauri over again and again and helping the Narns expand. And the human elements in this also don't like the Babylon Project and want it to fail, so they're helping to sabotage it by working with these aliens?
Maybe I've answered by own questions, but am I understanding this all? I remember having the plot expained to me very well on the WB boards years ago, but I started thinking about it today and I'm not sure if I totally get it.
I digress. Considering the diversity of factions involved, it's possible we might be able to figure out what each side was getting out of it. My first guess is that Sinclair being convicted for the attack is the primary goal. Takashima doesn't have the original idea to have Kosh scanned, but she does go along with it really easily, and it's possible she would've suggested it sooner or later if Dr. Kyle hadn't or "discovered" some additional evidence.
The human faction (the Psi Corps-led conspiracy) gets Sinclair shitcanned, and they didn't like or trust him thanks to the questions of what happened at the Line, the Minbari getting him placed in charge of B5, and his generally moderate political disposition. They could replace him with someone more friendly to their aims, like Jarhead John Sheridan or Col. Ari Ben Hitler.
The Wind Swords... well, they probably get the exact same thing. They seem to have picked up on the fact that Sinclair had something to do with the Religious Caste sending out the surrender order and robbing them of their glorious victory. Losing their human stooge would also weaken the Religious Caste politically, which fits in with the long-term plan to kick Delenn to the curb and not fight in the Shadow War.
G'Kar probably got a wheelbarrow full of money, and a chance to destabilize the political situation. More wars means more potential for alliances (like the one he ineptly tried to talk Delenn into), more people willing to buy off-brand Centauri weaponry, and more colonies and nonaligned worlds the Narn can invade without too much trouble during the confusion.
Though all this does invite the question of how these disparate groups got to scheming with each other. Mostly the Minbari and Human factions (the Narns could've just been seen as the best accomplices they could hire). I mean, most of their motivation is that each one hates and distrusts the other.
If it wasn't so early, I'd say it sounded like a prime case for a Shadow operation. They could be the intermediaries for both sides, except that Morden apparently didn't leave Z'ha'dum until he showed up at B5. Though, you know, we never did find out exactly how Justin got to Z'ha'dum...
Maybe the Narns actually approached the human and Minbari factions and got this all working together. Normally they'd hate eachother, but they see an opportunity to gain, probably thinking they'd eventually screw over the other sides.
The Shadows weren't attacking everyone. They left those they had allied with alone. Their goal was to strengthen the races, not wipe them out nor have them wipe each other out. Other races having to fight their neighbours and the Shadows would theoretically lead to a greater threat and thus greater progress.
That makes the most sense, especially since the end of The Gathering paints G'Kar as the puppetmaster when Sinclair confronts him.
[QUOTE=Biggles;195730]The Shadows weren't attacking everyone. They left those they had allied with alone. Their goal was to strengthen the races, not wipe them out nor have them wipe each other out. Other races having to fight their neighbours and the Shadows would theoretically lead to a greater threat and thus greater progress.[/QUOTE]
I suppose that makes sense, though it still leaves the question of how their approaches and the Vorlons' approach were supposed to be competing. They seem more complimentary, especially considering that the Vorlons only show up to start building galactic alliances when the Shadows come around. And the Shadows attacking openly only gives the younger races a common enemy that they could only hope to defend against by working together. But even though the Shadows opened that door themselves by not, well, staying in the shadows, they threw a fit about it, trying to convince Sheridan to just let everyone worry about saving their own skin without working together.
I think my real problem is that I'm trying to square what happened in this Shadow War against Valen's war, and I'm assuming the earlier one was according to the rules, since it didn't spiral out of control with planet killers and death clouds and secret P-30 telepaths meant to... well, there's another question, right there.
Why did the Vorlons need to make Lyta into a telepathic doomsday machine? They had the ability to destroy Z'ha'dum and the Shadows themselves if they really thought it was necessary, so why build a telepathic super weapon? Was she supposed to be used by the Army of Light without being told to by the Vorlons to destroy the Shadows? Would that count as their ideological victory, having the Shadows wiped out by the younger races (along with a few White Stars and telepaths the Vorlons just "accidentally" left where they could be found) while the Vorlons watched from a discreet distance?
But that would mean that the last Shadow War was already supposed to be the last Shadow War, at least from the Vorlons' perspective. For the Shadows, it seemed to be business as usual up until Sheridan bombed Z'ha'dum. Then they suddenly stopped all their attacks, and began hiding ships on different planets, which Morden points out that would've normally happened years later, after they started losing (or "losing") the war. It seemed like the Vorlons were also blindsided by it, since they started destroying Shadow-allied worlds after that, and explicitly said Sheridan's attack was what allowed it. But Kosh planned for Sheridan to go to Z'ha'dum, probably to meet Lorien, and the Vorlons had already modified Lyta years earlier. But later, Ulkesh was keeping her on a very short leash, so she couldn't have been intended to be a gift for the younger races... unless the Vorlons considered Sheridan's attack to be the ideological victory they needed to prove the Shadows wrong, so their prior plans for total victory could be put aside.
So once Sheridan rejected the Shadows' temptation, the Vorlons decided they could rampage through the galaxy, methodically erasing the Shadows from existence, confident that the enemy finally understood that their philosophy had failed and the Vorlons were right about peace and loyalty and self-sacrifice and all that jazz.
Lyta I think was an experiment. Also, like it's stated, the telepaths were just weapons to the Vorlons, and they probably had some intention of using Lyta for something later on. It actually makes more sense that Ulkesh keeps her on such a tight leash to moniter her and make sure everything's going as planned.
Valen's war against the Shadows is pretty mysterious. The only races we know that Valen worked with were the Minbari, Vorlons, and some various First Ones. What about the other races of that time? How come we don't hear about other spacefaring races that fought in that war? Though there were the "In Valen's Name" comics, which has some race that fought against the Shadows and seemed to pretty much worship Valen, and that fanaticism went way too far (they actually factor into my own theory about what happened to Valen and Delenn). I can't remember, was it only after that war that the Shadows started hiding their ships everywhere, or was that always part of their strategy?
I don't remember if anyone else was mentioned as being part of Valen's alliance, but the comic did say that one of the future League worlds refused to get involved. And, while it was never said outright, it seems that if it were dramatized, the Narn would have a part to play. The Centauri, too, probably (they had apparently been attacked by the Drakh at some point). Heck, maybe even some medieval humans, given that the Shadows stashed at least two ships on Earth's doorstep.