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The Price of Knowledge

StingrayStingray Elite Ranger
in Zocalo v2.0
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for science and research but I'm starting to wonder what all this particle colliders are good for, other than to burn large sums of money.

If you thought that the LHC was the collider to end all collider construction, well you thought wrong. [URL="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100726/ap_on_sc/eu_france_atom_smashers"]Now they want a bigger one and it's not going to be circular but straight.[/URL]

There are also projects that try to capture dark matter, basically a theoretical particle that is supposed to explain how the universe works and which is said to keep the galaxies from falling apart or something. So they are trying to catch something that isn't really there and they have sensors that are supposed to capture said theoretical particle and no one is surprised that there are no results after a decade of "research".

I don't understand how these people manage to get any sort of funding. They must be working on something else and use their bogus projects as a cover. There is no other explanation.

Comments

  • ShadowDancerShadowDancer When I say, "Why aye, gadgie," in my heart I say, "Och aye, laddie." London, UK
    Well they call it 'blue sky research' for a good reason! Besides, just because they haven't necessarily discovered what they set out to, doesn't mean that it's a failure. Not finding something can teach you as much about the laws of nature as finding something.

    Yes the money does seem excessive, but then you've only got to look at the size of the detector cathedrals in the LHC to see where all the money is going
  • FreejackFreejack Jake the Not-so-Wise
    I think your question boils down to: Is the money spent on research like the LHC the most effective way to move humanity's understanding of the world around them forward?

    I doubt you could argue that LHC is an ineffective way to study the world around us, it surely is. Rather the question is, given over-all limited economic, natural and human resources of humanity, are projects like the LHC the most efficient method of answering the questions of the world?

    [EDIT] Found a commentary from Pop Sci writer on a similar discussion: [url]http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2008-09/defense-lhc?page=1[/url]

    Something else to point out, in addition to the discovery benefits, large-scale projects are an economic generator in and of themselves. The $6 Billion spent went to suppliers, workers, administrators, employess all over the world.

    Jake
  • StingrayStingray Elite Ranger
    Some comedian, I forgot who, made fun of government subsidies paid to farmers for NOT growing corn. :D

    So what are you doing for a living?

    I'm not growing corn.

    So what are you researching?

    I'm looking for a non-existing particle. :D

    What I'm trying to say is, to all those Will Ferrell's out there ([URL="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0457400/"]Land of the Lost[/URL]), you can do it, if you want to.
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    [QUOTE=Stingray;189299]There are also projects that try to capture dark matter, basically a theoretical particle that is supposed to explain how the universe works and which is said to keep the galaxies from falling apart or something.[/quote]

    You're mixing up dark matter (we know [i]something[/i] is there, just not what) and the Higg's Boson (theories say it should be there, if it isn't then we need new theories).

    [quote]So they are trying to catch something that isn't really there and they have sensors that are supposed to capture said theoretical particle and no one is surprised that there are no results after a decade of "research".[/quote]

    How do you know it isn't really there? How can you proove that? Oh, right.

    Particle accelerators.
  • Entil'ZhaEntil'Zha I see famous people
    Don't forget that 9 times out of 10, what they end up discovering that changes the world, was not what they were looking for in the first place. I mean the interwebs were supposed to be an educational and military tool, and now they are the worlds greatest porn distribution syste.. Uhh nevermind...
  • sinclairsinclair Ranger
    As a forced EU citizen, I'm happy to know that our organization funds the research for better future.

    [url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/7909787/EUs-secret-400m-for-crazy-projects.html[/url]

    Such as postcards...
  • Entil'ZhaEntil'Zha I see famous people
    Postcards are vitally important to the survival of the human race!
  • TyvarTyvar Next best thing to a St. Bernard
    I'm not sure about the necessity of the EU to have another larger particle accelerator at this time.. The LHC isn't even running at full power yet.

    And once the LHC starts running at full power if it can't find the Higgs boson, its gonna take a couple years for the mathematicians and theorists to come up with a revision of the standard model, or god help us a NEW model of physics, complete with experiments to run to test them.

    Sides I think once people start looking at the logistics of building such a large linar accelerator (and the amount of real estate its going to take up) Most of the European countries are going to drop out of hosting it. You could still bore a hole in the alps for it.. but as we discovered with the LHC, that's very expensive (and as all major boring projects are, dangerous one worker was killed on the LHC project.)

    The US and Russia have enough land to burn that a straight trench could be dug and the tunnel laid inside the trench, which is a cheaper approach, but I think the political situation will keep either the US or Russia from hosting said facility.

    So in conclusion, I think its a pie in the sky dream at this point.

    More important than a new particle collider is for the EU to make sure its commitments to ITER don't slip. NIF is starting its first round of testing already, and generating data. (compared to laser megajoule in France which isn't finished yet.) We need our fusion reactors people :P
  • BigglesBiggles <font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
    [QUOTE=Tyvar;189393]I'm not sure about the necessity of the EU to have another larger particle accelerator at this time.. The LHC isn't even running at full power yet.[/quote]

    It's not an EU project, and there are plenty of countries outside the EU in the run for hosting it.

    [quote]And once the LHC starts running at full power if it can't find the Higgs boson, its gonna take a couple years for the mathematicians and theorists to come up with a revision of the standard model, or god help us a NEW model of physics, complete with experiments to run to test them.[/quote]

    Everything is made up of tiny strands of spaghetti, except neutrons. They're tiny meatballs.

    [quote]Sides I think once people start looking at the logistics of building such a large linar accelerator (and the amount of real estate its going to take up) Most of the European countries are going to drop out of hosting it. You could still bore a hole in the alps for it.. but as we discovered with the LHC, that's very expensive (and as all major boring projects are, dangerous one worker was killed on the LHC project.)[/quote]

    While digging the hole is very expensive, the LHC's hole was already there. It re-used the hole of the previous accelerator.

    [quote]So in conclusion, I think its a pie in the sky dream at this point.[/quote]

    I wouldn't bet on that.
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