I'm already planning my resistance cell for the revolution. I already got one person for interrogations, a heavy weapons expert, a strategist, and some target fodder I can throw out into the front lines.
Got a sniper / Stealth guy yet? Since I'm game for that. :)
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE=Trident;176866]I'm already planning my resistance cell for the revolution. I already got one person for interrogations, a heavy weapons expert, a strategist, and some target fodder I can throw out into the front lines.[/QUOTE]
I think that this victory is bitter sweet really. Hopefully Obama can change some things that IMO shouldn't have been voted on in the first place- like gay marriage in California, why is it up to the public who people can marry really? And Abortion, again, not a referreudum-able issue, it's a court issue.
It's not a government issue at all, and it has no right to say so - unless the people make it so. At which point it is the governments job to enforce the will of the people.
In California and Florida the voice of the people was heard, and as such, the Government has a responsibility to uphold their choice.
We are not a democracy A2, we are a Republic. The role of our constitutions, and it's courts, are to protect the minority from the exploitation and persecution of the majority.
Was Brown vs The Board of Education activist judges, legislating from the bench?
Lets not forget Arkansas which just passed a measure banning any non married individuals or couples from adopting.
[COLOR="Red"]*A2597 sighs at the screwed up state of the world.
[/COLOR]
I know the world has always been a mess, but sometimes it's flat out depressing how screwed up it is. It's like I can see how we were ment to live, and it will never be a reality, since everything gets destroyed. From our planet by the way we live, to the relationships of people evident in every aspect from divorce to polarized polotical parties, to waring nations.
In the entire history of this country, when have we passed legislation to take away the rights of an entire group of citizens and how much of that legislation held up over time?
I can think of a few off the top of my head. All 3 of which are religious in nature.
Slavery - This country was founded with slave owners. Slaves were considered property, and there is plenty of biblical references of people owning slaves. Proponents of Slavery cited the bible many a time that it was their divine right to own another human being. Obviously the civil war rectified slavery. The civil rights movements eventually gave black Americans the same rights as its white citizens with no segregation. An amendment to the constitution (15) was passed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill of Rights
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude--
Women - The country was founded by men, and while women played an integral part in many of those mens lives (John Adams especially) they were relegated to second class citizenship. Once again, the bible was used as a reason for this. The bible speaks very lowly of most women not named the Virgin Mary. Many men stated that women could not be trusted to make sound political decisions. They were relegated to home life, and were told to be good housewives. Woman's suffrage finally changed all that in the 1920's. But they suffered to get it done and were up against enormous political pressure. President Wilson was trying to preserve democracy for the people of the Europe (WWI) but allowing an injustice against democracy to continue here. Finally, he helped get it done and we let an entire subgroup of our culture enjoy the freedoms the rest of enjoyed. Amendment 19 btw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bill of Rights
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
Finally, alcohol. Protestant law makers found a way (somehow) to legislate their god given hatred for alcoholic beverages and passed an amendment making it a dry country. People protested, people fought back. Legislating morality as it was became a complete failure. and in 1921 the first amendment to nullify a previous amendment was instituted. Amendment 21 repealed amendment 18.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bill of Rights
Section 1.
The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.
So my question is, what is the goal of making gay marriage illegal? History tells us you can try all you want to enforce your religious beliefs onto others but Democracy eventually will win out. At some point in our future Gays marriage will be a constitutionally protected item.
So why do proponents try to legislate their morality onto other people? Why do they try to take away the rights of an entire group of tax paying American citizens when clearly, they will eventually lose way to more forward thinking individuals and laws will be passed to ensure freedom exists for all of America's citizens.
This is why I am for gay marriage. I see it as an injustice against freedom.
I believe Religion is a personal choice. When you inject religion into a government, you take that choice away, thus limiting the freedoms of your citizens. This is why all religion based governments are doomed to failure. Human beings in nature desire freedom above all else. Freedom to live their lives the way they see fit. Freedom is the greatest driving force on this planet.
Personally, I think Proposition 8 might end up being the best thing to happen for the legalization of same-sex marriage. It opens a door to lawsuits to all those people who just had their marriages voided, and if one of those goes before the Supreme Court, it's entirely possible they'll rule that the equal protection clause of the 14th amendment and the precedent of Brown v Board does not allow for a "separate but equal" pool of marriage partners for men and women. And if that were to happen, all those thirty-odd states with one man/one woman laws will be going up a creek.
Granted, it's a little unlikely with the current balance of the court, and you'd still need a president and congress willing to enforce that ruling (it was ten years between Brown v Board and the Civil Rights Act), but this could end up being the foot in the door the SSM movement needs.
Ahh, I was wondering who that random attractive David was posting on my facebook profile!
But yes, there is a realm of possibility of prop 8 making it to the sup court. It is also possible that, if they do hear it, they may rule that the united states constitution does not protect this.
Sadly monumental moments that catalyze growth, such as the Stonewall riots, are becoming few and far between as the bigots hide behind their veil of tolerance.
well I'll disagree right back at ya :P
Marriage rites are given to the people by the state so therefore the state can decide who can and cannot be married. In California it was settled in court, what gives a bigot down the street the right to tell these people who have already won their battle that it's wrong?
I completely agree that churches (which are private institutions) can limit who gets married in their facilities but the rights granted by being married should be available to all who qualify, and those people deserve to not be discriminated against by race gender NOR sexual orientation.
[QUOTE=A2597;176879][COLOR="Red"]*A2597 sighs at the screwed up state of the world.
[/COLOR]
I know the world has always been a mess, but sometimes it's flat out depressing how screwed up it is. It's like I can see how we were ment to live, and it will never be a reality, since everything gets destroyed. From our planet by the way we live, to the relationships of people evident in every aspect from divorce to polarized polotical parties, to waring nations.
It's somewhat sad.[/QUOTE]
Last but not least, the butchering of the English language. ;)
I do have a knack for thinking something, typing it out, following a line of thourght, and erasing the whole thing narrowing it down to one key point and hitting submit...
and then relizing a day later that in the context of the post around it means nothing close to where my line of thought had taken me to, nor conveys what I intended it to. Usually resulting in making me look like an idiot / bigot. And no, that post had nothing to do with gay marriage, hard as that is to believe given the context in which I posted it.
[QUOTE=croxis;176882]Ahh, I was wondering who that random attractive David was posting on my facebook profile!
But yes, there is a realm of possibility of prop 8 making it to the sup court. It is also possible that, if they do hear it, they may rule that the united states constitution does not protect this.
Sadly monumental moments that catalyze growth, such as the Stonewall riots, are becoming few and far between as the bigots hide behind their veil of tolerance.[/QUOTE]
You will be glad to know that Target prides itself on tolerance! During the LGBT month, in the break room we had these little poster things talking about the Stonewall Riots and how great Target is for being open to everything!
"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind. Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph."
I really agree with this. I also think that the whole Shadow philosophy is pretty much the truth, that conflict, chaos, and barbarism is the true nature of all living things, and that it has to be, because that's the only way our species could have survived and gotten on top. Do I think that just because this is true about us that we should just give up and accept it? No. I think that we can be better, and that it takes more effort, but when I look around I usually just see the worst in everything. Just look at history and you'll see civilizations collapse over and over. It's impossible for everyone to get together. Maybe I'm just a cynical, pessimistic bastard but all the years I've been alive have taught me that.
Quoting Robert E. Howad again, in conversation with his girlfriend at the time, Novalyne Price:
"You see, girl, when a civilization begins to decay and die, the only thing men or women think about is the gratification of their body's desires. They become preoccupied with sex. It colors their thinking, their laws, their religion - every aspect of their lives.
...
"That's what I'm trying to tell you girl. Men quit reading fiction, because they only want true stories of men's sexual exploits... A few years ago, I had a hard time selling yarns... about sex. Now, I'm going to have to work to catch up with the market... Damn it to hell, girl, sex will be in everything you see and hear. It's the way it was when Rome fell."
He said that in 1935, and I swear the guy was a prophet. I know I'm ranting here, but with everyone talking about how we're all screwed I thought it was appropriate. I don't see how humanity is going to make it. Eventually there's probably going to be some nuclear war and civilization will collapse and all that. Who knows? Maybe I'm wrong. Hell, at least I can admit that I'm wrong at times unlike most people on this planet it seems.
As for the election and stuff, I voted for Obama. No, I don't think that everything's going to be perfect now, but I just thought he was the best choice.
[QUOTE=ShadowDancer;176913]Actually the British Empire lasted up until just after the end of WW2 when empire's became a practical impossibility in the modern world[/QUOTE]
Thats what I wrote, wasnt it. ;)
And after rome collapsed pieces of it were still in function, as in the British Empire today. In fact, Russia is pretty much a descendant from Rome, as a major part of the thinkers from Byzanthium fled north, when that civilization fell, which in part is why they have the greek inspired letters (Kyryllic alphabet), several other cultures could claim to be descendants of Rome.
[QUOTE=DarthCaligula;176910]I was in a pretty dark mood when I wrote that, though I still pretty much agree with that. I just don't have much faith in humanity.[/QUOTE]
Though I've suffered a lot and seen a lot of wrong in my twenty three years of existence I still have a slight faith in humanity. At the least I still have faith in myself.
I remember about 4 years ago I had an argument with my brother and dad about people being naturally good vs naturally evil. I was so convinced that people were naturally good, that I told my father, I was going to stop working, stop going to school and become a writer.
He talked with his usual condescending tone "Son...listen." But now I'm thinking I was just naive and he was right all along and most of that time I spent was wasted.
Comments
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Or not, it dropped 5$ already today?!? Unexpected!
What are you going to resist? You didn't vote.
It's not a government issue at all, and it has no right to say so - unless the people make it so. At which point it is the governments job to enforce the will of the people.
In California and Florida the voice of the people was heard, and as such, the Government has a responsibility to uphold their choice.
Naw, I think this is at least a step in the right direction. Go USA for once!
On the socialdemocratism issue, its only got an image problem in the states..
Was Brown vs The Board of Education activist judges, legislating from the bench?
Lets not forget Arkansas which just passed a measure banning any non married individuals or couples from adopting.
[/COLOR]
I know the world has always been a mess, but sometimes it's flat out depressing how screwed up it is. It's like I can see how we were ment to live, and it will never be a reality, since everything gets destroyed. From our planet by the way we live, to the relationships of people evident in every aspect from divorce to polarized polotical parties, to waring nations.
It's somewhat sad.
In the entire history of this country, when have we passed legislation to take away the rights of an entire group of citizens and how much of that legislation held up over time?
I can think of a few off the top of my head. All 3 of which are religious in nature.
Slavery - This country was founded with slave owners. Slaves were considered property, and there is plenty of biblical references of people owning slaves. Proponents of Slavery cited the bible many a time that it was their divine right to own another human being. Obviously the civil war rectified slavery. The civil rights movements eventually gave black Americans the same rights as its white citizens with no segregation. An amendment to the constitution (15) was passed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill of Rights
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude--
Women - The country was founded by men, and while women played an integral part in many of those mens lives (John Adams especially) they were relegated to second class citizenship. Once again, the bible was used as a reason for this. The bible speaks very lowly of most women not named the Virgin Mary. Many men stated that women could not be trusted to make sound political decisions. They were relegated to home life, and were told to be good housewives. Woman's suffrage finally changed all that in the 1920's. But they suffered to get it done and were up against enormous political pressure. President Wilson was trying to preserve democracy for the people of the Europe (WWI) but allowing an injustice against democracy to continue here. Finally, he helped get it done and we let an entire subgroup of our culture enjoy the freedoms the rest of enjoyed. Amendment 19 btw.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bill of Rights
The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.
Finally, alcohol. Protestant law makers found a way (somehow) to legislate their god given hatred for alcoholic beverages and passed an amendment making it a dry country. People protested, people fought back. Legislating morality as it was became a complete failure. and in 1921 the first amendment to nullify a previous amendment was instituted. Amendment 21 repealed amendment 18.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bill of Rights
Section 1.
The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.
So my question is, what is the goal of making gay marriage illegal? History tells us you can try all you want to enforce your religious beliefs onto others but Democracy eventually will win out. At some point in our future Gays marriage will be a constitutionally protected item.
So why do proponents try to legislate their morality onto other people? Why do they try to take away the rights of an entire group of tax paying American citizens when clearly, they will eventually lose way to more forward thinking individuals and laws will be passed to ensure freedom exists for all of America's citizens.
This is why I am for gay marriage. I see it as an injustice against freedom.
I believe Religion is a personal choice. When you inject religion into a government, you take that choice away, thus limiting the freedoms of your citizens. This is why all religion based governments are doomed to failure. Human beings in nature desire freedom above all else. Freedom to live their lives the way they see fit. Freedom is the greatest driving force on this planet.
Granted, it's a little unlikely with the current balance of the court, and you'd still need a president and congress willing to enforce that ruling (it was ten years between Brown v Board and the Civil Rights Act), but this could end up being the foot in the door the SSM movement needs.
But yes, there is a realm of possibility of prop 8 making it to the sup court. It is also possible that, if they do hear it, they may rule that the united states constitution does not protect this.
Sadly monumental moments that catalyze growth, such as the Stonewall riots, are becoming few and far between as the bigots hide behind their veil of tolerance.
Marriage rites are given to the people by the state so therefore the state can decide who can and cannot be married. In California it was settled in court, what gives a bigot down the street the right to tell these people who have already won their battle that it's wrong?
I completely agree that churches (which are private institutions) can limit who gets married in their facilities but the rights granted by being married should be available to all who qualify, and those people deserve to not be discriminated against by race gender NOR sexual orientation.
Canada, BTW, has already legalized gay marriage across the board and many Americans are looking at our example.
[/COLOR]
I know the world has always been a mess, but sometimes it's flat out depressing how screwed up it is. It's like I can see how we were ment to live, and it will never be a reality, since everything gets destroyed. From our planet by the way we live, to the relationships of people evident in every aspect from divorce to polarized polotical parties, to waring nations.
It's somewhat sad.[/QUOTE]
Last but not least, the butchering of the English language. ;)
and then relizing a day later that in the context of the post around it means nothing close to where my line of thought had taken me to, nor conveys what I intended it to. Usually resulting in making me look like an idiot / bigot. And no, that post had nothing to do with gay marriage, hard as that is to believe given the context in which I posted it.
Sorry about that...
But yes, there is a realm of possibility of prop 8 making it to the sup court. It is also possible that, if they do hear it, they may rule that the united states constitution does not protect this.
Sadly monumental moments that catalyze growth, such as the Stonewall riots, are becoming few and far between as the bigots hide behind their veil of tolerance.[/QUOTE]
You will be glad to know that Target prides itself on tolerance! During the LGBT month, in the break room we had these little poster things talking about the Stonewall Riots and how great Target is for being open to everything!
They brag about the dumbest stuff way too much.
No worries, as long as I can joke around, you can keep on butchering. :D
"Barbarism is the natural state of mankind. Civilization is unnatural. It is a whim of circumstance. And barbarism must always ultimately triumph."
I really agree with this. I also think that the whole Shadow philosophy is pretty much the truth, that conflict, chaos, and barbarism is the true nature of all living things, and that it has to be, because that's the only way our species could have survived and gotten on top. Do I think that just because this is true about us that we should just give up and accept it? No. I think that we can be better, and that it takes more effort, but when I look around I usually just see the worst in everything. Just look at history and you'll see civilizations collapse over and over. It's impossible for everyone to get together. Maybe I'm just a cynical, pessimistic bastard but all the years I've been alive have taught me that.
Quoting Robert E. Howad again, in conversation with his girlfriend at the time, Novalyne Price:
"You see, girl, when a civilization begins to decay and die, the only thing men or women think about is the gratification of their body's desires. They become preoccupied with sex. It colors their thinking, their laws, their religion - every aspect of their lives.
...
"That's what I'm trying to tell you girl. Men quit reading fiction, because they only want true stories of men's sexual exploits... A few years ago, I had a hard time selling yarns... about sex. Now, I'm going to have to work to catch up with the market... Damn it to hell, girl, sex will be in everything you see and hear. It's the way it was when Rome fell."
He said that in 1935, and I swear the guy was a prophet. I know I'm ranting here, but with everyone talking about how we're all screwed I thought it was appropriate. I don't see how humanity is going to make it. Eventually there's probably going to be some nuclear war and civilization will collapse and all that. Who knows? Maybe I'm wrong. Hell, at least I can admit that I'm wrong at times unlike most people on this planet it seems.
As for the election and stuff, I voted for Obama. No, I don't think that everything's going to be perfect now, but I just thought he was the best choice.
And yes, most probably the next civilisation to collapse will be the united states, but the world will live on.
Thats what I wrote, wasnt it. ;)
And after rome collapsed pieces of it were still in function, as in the British Empire today. In fact, Russia is pretty much a descendant from Rome, as a major part of the thinkers from Byzanthium fled north, when that civilization fell, which in part is why they have the greek inspired letters (Kyryllic alphabet), several other cultures could claim to be descendants of Rome.
Ah just me being too literal again then. I read it as meaning 1900-1910 heh ;)
Though I've suffered a lot and seen a lot of wrong in my twenty three years of existence I still have a slight faith in humanity. At the least I still have faith in myself.
I remember about 4 years ago I had an argument with my brother and dad about people being naturally good vs naturally evil. I was so convinced that people were naturally good, that I told my father, I was going to stop working, stop going to school and become a writer.
He talked with his usual condescending tone "Son...listen." But now I'm thinking I was just naive and he was right all along and most of that time I spent was wasted.
But one can never tell what the future holds.