Sounds expensive. :p And surely you can't go without the DisplayPort Port! I bet there will be variants with and without.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
I went hunting to see what's actually available here yesterday. The results are mixed.
All the standard CPU/motherboard/video card/sound card brands are available (although 640MB 8800GTS cards are rare). Prices for everything except CPUs (which don't seem to change world-wide) were very good compared with NZ.
No sign of Auzentech stuff.
RAM could be problematic. Only two kinds are sold here: cheap and expensive, and I didn't recognise either of the brands.
Cases were mixed. "Antec? What's that?" I think I saw one antec case... There were a couple of Lian Li's (PC-A10B and PC-101).
Power supplies were likewise mixed. Enermax was present in a small way, and I saw lots of ones by "Zumax," whom I've never heard of. I think I saw Seasonic, but I don't remember for sure.
A brand called Owltech that I've never heard of before appears to make a very large number of cases and power supplies. Quiet CPU coolers are big, quiet case fans don't exist.
[QUOTE=Sanfam;165778]And with regard to sound, avoid the Audigy or stock X-Fi right now.[/QUOTE]Software soundcards are shitty for gaming, 3D sounds require more hardware than ADCs/DACs.
[url]http://techreport.com/articles.x/11759/6[/url]
(in SPCR one told that he had used some high quality Turtle Beach soudncard... until he noticed enabling 3D sound in games halved framerates)
In case of case selection if you're going to have highest end graphic card at some point case being able to take E-ATX mobo makes sure there's enough space for longest graphic cards.
As for PSU, Corsair HXs/VX450, Antec EarthWatts, NeoHE and TruePower Trio are Seasonic made and also good noise wise... and generally don't have virtual rail crap.
[url]http://www.silentpcreview.com/article699-page1.html[/url]
That OCZ is basically same FSP unit as GameXtreme and might have high ripple when loaded. (GameXtreme isn't very [url=http://www.matbe.com/articles/lire/342/comparatif-de-105-alimentations/page137.php]quiet[/url])
Here's for what size you need:
[url]http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=84&threadid=2097209[/url]
(deduct 15% as losses in PSU, they forgot that)
For storage disk WD AAKS would be good choise, affordably priced, fast, and quiet in general... Samsung T166s have wide variety in vibration so it might require suspension.
- 65nm process technology at TSMC.
- Over one billion transistors.[/QUOTE]I can already hear watt meter running over 100W at idle...
Current cards are already shitty enough designs with ridiculously high idle consumption. (8800GTX ~70W / GTS ~60W)
Also because of that dual graphic card PC could be called as environment crimes (with Windows Fatty's Aero)... in first place cards don't even really idle and then shitty SLIs/MissFires keep second card red glowing because they can't even include sleepmode for it!
[QUOTE=Biggles;165885]Power supplies were likewise mixed... and I saw lots of ones by "Zumax,"[/QUOTE]With unknown names good starting point is that those have low/mediocre quality.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
That's my general assumption, yes.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
I've decided that I'm not willing to cover up all the expansion slots just to get a silent 8800GTS, so we can rule out after-market coolers for video cards.
The Antec P182 got a good review at silentpc. Not sure if I'll be able to get one here, though.
I've had a look at some reviews of the Asus Striker Extreme. Great performance, but with a huge price that appears to be partially going towards features I absolutely do not want, like blue LEDs all over the motherboard and the backplane and really easy overclocking. What's a cheaper option that gives as good performance and expansion/noise/cooling options without all the stupid gimmicks?
Another important question is the PSU: what sort of wattage am I going to need?
As we were just discussing on IRC, the only drawback to the Striker Extreme is that its an Nforce 680i, and that the Nforce 7xxx's are coming out "soon" but has anyone else heard anything about the new Nforce chipset?
I've not heard anything in months, Last i heard they were shooting for Q1 2008, but nothing since then...
so if anyone has any info on the next gen of Nforce...
[QUOTE=Biggles;165923]The Antec P182 got a good review at silentpc. Not sure if I'll be able to get one here, though.[/QUOTE]That's good case for not highest end "heating apparatus"-PCs.
Also it can just take 8800GTX sized graphic card if you don't have disk in upper HD rack.
[QUOTE]Another important question is the PSU: what sort of wattage am I going to need?[/QUOTE]400W would be enough if you won't be overclocking and never get two high end graphic cards:
[url]http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=84&threadid=2097209[/url] (deduct that 15% from measured values)
nVidia chipsets have also been notably more power hungry than i965 and i975. P35 might be closer to nVidia and X38 is rumored to be also hot running.
As I may or may not have mentioned above, I'm a big fan of the Gigabyte [URL="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128044&Tpk=Gigabyte"]GA-N650SLI-DS4[/URL]. The only thing I'd mention is that the heatsink does get quite hot and needs air flowing over it. I'd [B]mandate[/B] an aftermarket chipset heatsink from Zalman or such, as insufficient cooling is the biggest cause of failure in this lineup and part of the cost savings came through the loss of the heatpipe cooling unit.
The board isn't extraordinarily fancy, but it is built well and offers the functionality needed to use a system, no frills.
Another option from Asus would be [URL="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131073"]this board[/URL]. It's more fancy than the gigabyte, but it offers better built-in cooling. It is also based on the nforce 680i chipset, and is thus slightly quicker and offers somewhat better hardware support (with quirky memory compatibility)
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Define "quirky." :p
I'm not going to put an aftermarket heatsink on my motherboard. I don't have the time or the inclination to put the effort in at this stage.
If I was to remove the requirement for SLI capability, what would be the recommended board?
I was looking at the Asus P5N-E SLI nForce 650i. It really should be the cheapest motherboard possable. In a few months you will have the new chipsets and abilities with DDR3 memory.
Linky pooo!!!
back to graphics card, looks like it will be released with Vista SP1 and Crysis release.
Quirky is unpredictable compatibility. You can go with their "recommended" list and still end up with RAM which, due to minor variations in the chips used, only works in one pair of slots or another or after small voltage tweaks.
The Gigabyte GA-N650SLI-DS4 is my suggestion regardless of SLI wishes or not. It is their lowest level board with SLI and still comes out far cheaper than any of the others while being generally built with components of a quality seen only in the higher level boards (Solid State Capacitors, Six-phase CPU Voltage regulator, superior Northbridge HS when compared to competition). My roommate has it in his current system with some air flowing from the CPU to the northbridge achieving reasonable temperatures, but that could easily be resolved with a better/larger aftermarket passive cooler. It gets my vote.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
You're not making a very good case for it, Sanfam. If it's so difficult to keep at a reasonable temperature, it's not worth my time. :p How would it fair in the Antec case, keeping in mind that I won't be overclocking? What's its performance like?
[QUOTE=PSI-KILLER;165950]I was looking at the Asus P5N-E SLI nForce 650i. It really should be the cheapest motherboard possable. In a few months you will have the new chipsets and abilities with DDR3 memory. [/QUOTE]
I'm not going to buy the cheapest possible components now just so I can upgrade in three months. I'm going to buy the best value performance parts now so I don't have to upgrade for three years.
I have the Asus P5N-E SLI nForce 650i in my current system, It's a solid board. i wish i'd waited for the 680i though it wasn't available when i got mine.
Be careful with the P5N-E SLI, it doesn't like some memory, i've got 2 gigs of good OCZ in there that i paid a shitload for, that the board will not recognize uniless i put i cheap 512 stick in with it.
[QUOTE=Biggles;165956]You're not making a very good case for it, Sanfam. If it's so difficult to keep at a reasonable temperature, it's not worth my time. :p How would it fair in the Antec case, keeping in mind that I won't be overclocking? What's its performance like?[/QUOTE]
I'm not trying to make a perfect case for it. I'm trying to explain that it is a reasonable board for a reasonable price with one flaw that isn't terribly problematic, but offers potential long-term issues if improperly handled. I don't want to sugarcoat the board and gloss over what could be its one point of reliability concerns, I want to point out what that problem is and how it can be fixed with US$18 in accessories. Even if you add the cost of the chipset HS to the cost, it is still no more expensive than the competing models while coming with vastly better critical components built into the design. If you don't fix the northbridge, that means it'll just run a bit hot. If you upgrade to a tower style cooler, that may actually provide airflow in the exact direction to perfectly cool the gigabyte northbridge, but again, as long as you have any measure of in-case flow, you are good. The Antec case offers nearly perfect front-rear airflow directing it right over the NB and CPU at the proper angle, so I'm going to suspect it'll be fine. Performance is upper-middle along the 650i range, so in no way bad, but maybe a miniscule percent off of "superb"
[URL="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8113214@N07/"]Photos of the board[/URL] installed into a P182 with an Ultra 120 tower
[URL="http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=29&threadid=2042201&FTVAR_STKEYWORDFRM=&STARTPAGE=1&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear"]Forum discussion[/URL] on the the board
[URL="http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=4939"]A review [/URL]from VR-Zone and its [URL="http://forums.vr-zone.com/showthread.php?t=148568"]discussion[/URL]
Finally, the Tom's Hardware [URL="http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/05/24/seven_650i_sli_motherboards_compared/page10.html"]review[/URL]
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
How does performance compare to boards using the 680 chipset? I'm not concerned about having the absolute fastest motherboard by 0.1% cause that's pointless, but isn't the 650 an older chipset?
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
I read that at work today. It makes me happy, as I can potentially save a lot of money. :)
I've decided it's down to the one Sanfam must have shares or something in and the Asus P5N32-E SLI Plus. Ultimately the choice will probably be made by what CPU cooler I get (I was thinking of the Stealth Ninja Scythe or whatever it's called - supposedly it can be used fanless in the Antec case without any problems at all, except for the poor gigabyte board) and the price at purchase time.
[QUOTE=Sanfam;165963]The Antec case offers nearly perfect front-rear airflow directing it right over the NB and CPU at the proper angle, so I'm going to suspect it'll be fine."[/QUOTE]Well, power users just tend to keep Antec P18x cases as little lacking in airflow when it comes to high end components.
[QUOTE=Sanfam;165974][URL="http://www.techspot.com/review/45-nvidia-nforce-650i-sli-vs-680i-sli/page2.html"]Real-world performance testing! [/URL][/QUOTE]You mean real-world synthetic benchmarks...
If you buy that P5N32-E SLI Plus board and have intentions to overclock, keep in mind that the memory voltages of this particular model tend to fluctuate and 2.4V setting can be fatal to your RAM if used all the time.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
I seem to recall saying right at the start that I [i]don't[/i] have any intention of overclocking. :p
[QUOTE=E.T;165991]Well, power users just tend to keep Antec P18x cases as little lacking in airflow when it comes to high end components.[/QUOTE]
Lacking when compared to what? Again, the aim biggles is going in with are those of quiet operation. In this instance, the P180 line offers sufficient airflow while not allowing much interior noise to escape. The shell's construction alone is a huge portion of that dampening potential (steel/plastic/steel layering). Few other cases on the market offer near-silence [B]and[/B] decent airflow. Hell, if you want more flow, swap the fans for something other than a trio of tri-cool. But the case itself offers a wonderful arrangement where the primary HD cluster gets sufficient cooling and the air pathways flow right over the northbridge and CPU.
[QUOTE]You mean real-world synthetic benchmarks...[/QUOTE]
Looking at that same link right now, I'm quite sure that at least one of the of the following pages contained in-game performance testing...
[QUOTE=Biggles;166000]I seem to recall saying right at the start that I [i]don't[/i] have any intention of overclocking. :p[/QUOTE]
but overclocking is tha shitz. :p
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
And yet, strangely, it's not something I'm even remotely interested in. :p
Are there any recommendations for CPU cooler? The Scythe SCNJ-1000 Ninja seems like a very good one with potential for fanless or low-speed-and-thus-quiet-fan operation, but I've seen conflicting reports around the net about whether it will fit on the P5N32-E SLI Plus, and it's not a downdraft fan so possibly not usable with the gigabyte board.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE=Biggles;165885]A brand called Owltech that I've never heard of before appears to make a very large number of cases and power supplies. Quiet CPU coolers are big, quiet case fans don't exist.[/QUOTE]
So guess what I just found out? This "Owltech" brand appears to be Seasonic in disguise.
depending on the arrangement, you could go with one of the passive northbridge coolers I mentioned above. They raise the heatsink itself from the board and place it directly inline with the airflow from most modern tower coolers. And they can be had pretty cheap :p
Comments
All the standard CPU/motherboard/video card/sound card brands are available (although 640MB 8800GTS cards are rare). Prices for everything except CPUs (which don't seem to change world-wide) were very good compared with NZ.
No sign of Auzentech stuff.
RAM could be problematic. Only two kinds are sold here: cheap and expensive, and I didn't recognise either of the brands.
Cases were mixed. "Antec? What's that?" I think I saw one antec case... There were a couple of Lian Li's (PC-A10B and PC-101).
Power supplies were likewise mixed. Enermax was present in a small way, and I saw lots of ones by "Zumax," whom I've never heard of. I think I saw Seasonic, but I don't remember for sure.
A brand called Owltech that I've never heard of before appears to make a very large number of cases and power supplies. Quiet CPU coolers are big, quiet case fans don't exist.
[QUOTE]65nm process will allow for better yields and better power consumption. power consumption will be lower than that of a GeForce 8800 GTX.
GeForce 9800 GTX will be over two times faster than a GeForce 8800 Ultra in real world games and applcations.
Release date : November 2007. There will be TWO products at launch: The flagship GeForce 9800 GTX and the second fastest GeForce 9800 GTS.
price for the GeForce 9800 GTX will be 549-649 USD.
price for the GeForce 9800 GTS will be 399-449 USD.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://www.xbitlabs.com/discussion/3953.html"]http://www.xbitlabs.com/discussion/3953.html[/URL]
rumor mill, keep on spinning!
also nvidia will most likely release new chipsets with the g92 launch, speculation here:
[URL="http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=5127"]http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=5127[/URL]
[url]http://techreport.com/articles.x/11759/6[/url]
(in SPCR one told that he had used some high quality Turtle Beach soudncard... until he noticed enabling 3D sound in games halved framerates)
In case of case selection if you're going to have highest end graphic card at some point case being able to take E-ATX mobo makes sure there's enough space for longest graphic cards.
As for PSU, Corsair HXs/VX450, Antec EarthWatts, NeoHE and TruePower Trio are Seasonic made and also good noise wise... and generally don't have virtual rail crap.
[url]http://www.silentpcreview.com/article699-page1.html[/url]
That OCZ is basically same FSP unit as GameXtreme and might have high ripple when loaded. (GameXtreme isn't very [url=http://www.matbe.com/articles/lire/342/comparatif-de-105-alimentations/page137.php]quiet[/url])
Here's for what size you need:
[url]http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=84&threadid=2097209[/url]
(deduct 15% as losses in PSU, they forgot that)
For storage disk WD AAKS would be good choise, affordably priced, fast, and quiet in general... Samsung T166s have wide variety in vibration so it might require suspension.
[QUOTE=PSI-KILLER;165843]
"G92" GeForce 9800 GTX specs.
- 65nm process technology at TSMC.
- Over one billion transistors.[/QUOTE]I can already hear watt meter running over 100W at idle...
Current cards are already shitty enough designs with ridiculously high idle consumption. (8800GTX ~70W / GTS ~60W)
Also because of that dual graphic card PC could be called as environment crimes (with Windows Fatty's Aero)... in first place cards don't even really idle and then shitty SLIs/MissFires keep second card red glowing because they can't even include sleepmode for it!
[QUOTE=Biggles;165885]Power supplies were likewise mixed... and I saw lots of ones by "Zumax,"[/QUOTE]With unknown names good starting point is that those have low/mediocre quality.
The Antec P182 got a good review at silentpc. Not sure if I'll be able to get one here, though.
I've had a look at some reviews of the Asus Striker Extreme. Great performance, but with a huge price that appears to be partially going towards features I absolutely do not want, like blue LEDs all over the motherboard and the backplane and really easy overclocking. What's a cheaper option that gives as good performance and expansion/noise/cooling options without all the stupid gimmicks?
Another important question is the PSU: what sort of wattage am I going to need?
I've not heard anything in months, Last i heard they were shooting for Q1 2008, but nothing since then...
so if anyone has any info on the next gen of Nforce...
hmm, maybe the Asus P5NT-WS as motherboard if you want SLI support.
Also it can just take 8800GTX sized graphic card if you don't have disk in upper HD rack.
[QUOTE]Another important question is the PSU: what sort of wattage am I going to need?[/QUOTE]400W would be enough if you won't be overclocking and never get two high end graphic cards:
[url]http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=84&threadid=2097209[/url] (deduct that 15% from measured values)
nVidia chipsets have also been notably more power hungry than i965 and i975. P35 might be closer to nVidia and X38 is rumored to be also hot running.
The board isn't extraordinarily fancy, but it is built well and offers the functionality needed to use a system, no frills.
Another option from Asus would be [URL="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131073"]this board[/URL]. It's more fancy than the gigabyte, but it offers better built-in cooling. It is also based on the nforce 680i chipset, and is thus slightly quicker and offers somewhat better hardware support (with quirky memory compatibility)
I'm not going to put an aftermarket heatsink on my motherboard. I don't have the time or the inclination to put the effort in at this stage.
If I was to remove the requirement for SLI capability, what would be the recommended board?
Linky pooo!!!
back to graphics card, looks like it will be released with Vista SP1 and Crysis release.
[url]http://www.maximumpc.com/article/nvidia_launching_new_hardware_to_coincide_with_crysis_release?page=0%2C0[/url]
The Gigabyte GA-N650SLI-DS4 is my suggestion regardless of SLI wishes or not. It is their lowest level board with SLI and still comes out far cheaper than any of the others while being generally built with components of a quality seen only in the higher level boards (Solid State Capacitors, Six-phase CPU Voltage regulator, superior Northbridge HS when compared to competition). My roommate has it in his current system with some air flowing from the CPU to the northbridge achieving reasonable temperatures, but that could easily be resolved with a better/larger aftermarket passive cooler. It gets my vote.
[QUOTE=PSI-KILLER;165950]I was looking at the Asus P5N-E SLI nForce 650i. It really should be the cheapest motherboard possable. In a few months you will have the new chipsets and abilities with DDR3 memory. [/QUOTE]
I'm not going to buy the cheapest possible components now just so I can upgrade in three months. I'm going to buy the best value performance parts now so I don't have to upgrade for three years.
Be careful with the P5N-E SLI, it doesn't like some memory, i've got 2 gigs of good OCZ in there that i paid a shitload for, that the board will not recognize uniless i put i cheap 512 stick in with it.
I'm not trying to make a perfect case for it. I'm trying to explain that it is a reasonable board for a reasonable price with one flaw that isn't terribly problematic, but offers potential long-term issues if improperly handled. I don't want to sugarcoat the board and gloss over what could be its one point of reliability concerns, I want to point out what that problem is and how it can be fixed with US$18 in accessories. Even if you add the cost of the chipset HS to the cost, it is still no more expensive than the competing models while coming with vastly better critical components built into the design. If you don't fix the northbridge, that means it'll just run a bit hot. If you upgrade to a tower style cooler, that may actually provide airflow in the exact direction to perfectly cool the gigabyte northbridge, but again, as long as you have any measure of in-case flow, you are good. The Antec case offers nearly perfect front-rear airflow directing it right over the NB and CPU at the proper angle, so I'm going to suspect it'll be fine. Performance is upper-middle along the 650i range, so in no way bad, but maybe a miniscule percent off of "superb"
[URL="http://www.flickr.com/photos/8113214@N07/"]Photos of the board[/URL] installed into a P182 with an Ultra 120 tower
[URL="http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=29&threadid=2042201&FTVAR_STKEYWORDFRM=&STARTPAGE=1&FTVAR_FORUMVIEWTMP=Linear"]Forum discussion[/URL] on the the board
[URL="http://www.vr-zone.com/?i=4939"]A review [/URL]from VR-Zone and its [URL="http://forums.vr-zone.com/showthread.php?t=148568"]discussion[/URL]
Finally, the Tom's Hardware [URL="http://www.tomshardware.com/2007/05/24/seven_650i_sli_motherboards_compared/page10.html"]review[/URL]
I've decided it's down to the one Sanfam must have shares or something in and the Asus P5N32-E SLI Plus. Ultimately the choice will probably be made by what CPU cooler I get (I was thinking of the Stealth Ninja Scythe or whatever it's called - supposedly it can be used fanless in the Antec case without any problems at all, except for the poor gigabyte board) and the price at purchase time.
[QUOTE=Sanfam;165974][URL="http://www.techspot.com/review/45-nvidia-nforce-650i-sli-vs-680i-sli/page2.html"]Real-world performance testing! [/URL][/QUOTE]You mean real-world synthetic benchmarks...
Lacking when compared to what? Again, the aim biggles is going in with are those of quiet operation. In this instance, the P180 line offers sufficient airflow while not allowing much interior noise to escape. The shell's construction alone is a huge portion of that dampening potential (steel/plastic/steel layering). Few other cases on the market offer near-silence [B]and[/B] decent airflow. Hell, if you want more flow, swap the fans for something other than a trio of tri-cool. But the case itself offers a wonderful arrangement where the primary HD cluster gets sufficient cooling and the air pathways flow right over the northbridge and CPU.
[QUOTE]You mean real-world synthetic benchmarks...[/QUOTE]
Looking at that same link right now, I'm quite sure that at least one of the of the following pages contained in-game performance testing...
but overclocking is tha shitz. :p
Are there any recommendations for CPU cooler? The Scythe SCNJ-1000 Ninja seems like a very good one with potential for fanless or low-speed-and-thus-quiet-fan operation, but I've seen conflicting reports around the net about whether it will fit on the P5N32-E SLI Plus, and it's not a downdraft fan so possibly not usable with the gigabyte board.
So guess what I just found out? This "Owltech" brand appears to be Seasonic in disguise.