3) Fair comment, though I will say that updating the original Vorchan design was tried, just with more detail. It looked silly. The modeler went back and made some of his own changes, and everyone liked them. I've seen a bunch of comments online so far about how B5 still has that "candy" look with this disc, and I think we backed it off from the original show, so it's purely a personal opinion thing. Plus, the cruiser is a bit less saturated so the fighters stand out against it during the battle. Too much purple otherwise.
4) Earth ships were certainly grey, except for the Omegas which were sort of brown, and still are in the two shots I put them in. There are lots of kinds of "grey".
5) Can't help there.
6) It's the right way, trust me. That view is VERY disorienting. The camera is exactly where it should be spinning around with the same station animation as the rest of the shots. It just looks weird, it's the nature of the geography. I thought the same thing when I did the first preview of that shot.
7) B5 was built on the cheap, right, why would they spend money to paint to decorate a place that only lowly techs usually enter for any significant period of time? :p
8) There is a G'Quan around the station in a couple of shots. Drazi ship still has the bright engines, just not quite so blazing orange, more of a glow, plus it's far away and might not be visible in standard def.
9) The green decal kicks ass.
10) B5 is not bigger. It is exactly 5 miles long, exactly. All of the other ships are scaled properly as best as I could manage, though in a lot of our shots they're farther away from the station. The old models can't hold up to HD frame size and there was no time to work on them, plus, why would you even want a Sharlin 500 metres from B5? Space is big, better to keep some distance for safety ;)
Awesome comments. Oh, and A2597, you should be able to find an Omega or two in at least one other shot.
On Thunderbolts....just no time, and not really *that* important.
Most things are rendered at 1920x1080 for this. Depends on the element, or the shot. Some things can be less, rarely is anything ever more. Nothing is absolute.
B5 is a tough crowd to play to. I hope the disc does well enough for more.
Oh, there's more than that. I just looked at Alec's site on a whim, and very nearly died of joy when I saw the massive update in his gallery section. I didn't look closely, because I want to see it all for the first time in context on the DVD (does anyone remember when pre-ordering from Amazon meant you got it [i]on or before the release date?[/i] I sure do), but I have to say that with the large size and large quantity of pictures he's put on his site from this and other shows, Alec is now confirmed as my favorite professional special effects person [i]ever.[/i]
Nope, I had nothing to do with the Daedalus. Most of the Stargate stuff is designed by the art department at the production office. I like the Daedalus as well, though I find it only looks good from a few angles, and it only lights well from a few angles. It's a nice model though, lots of detail.
VFX artists don't get to do design or art direction work very often, which is why it was such a treat and so much fun for "Lost Tales".
Well, while we're on the subject, was it your idea to incorporate details from the stargate into the textures of that Atlantis model, like the arches surrounding the weapons dishes, and the zig-zag lines along the borders? Because I thought that was really cool when I first noticed it, and I think it should've been like that on the city model(s) from day one.
Yes, that was me. Atmosphere has only done a handful of city shots though, and that texture job only appears on *our* city, and maybe a couple of shots from production's in-house team. Rainmaker has their own model of the city, for example.
Finished watching it. Where all things VFX is concerned it was great. I don't think I noticed anything that was wrong with the perspectives or the designs. My only bone to pick is why not more?????? I undertsand the development and focus for story reasons on the characters but the flashbacks or flashforwards of the space battle were more like short term memory loss moments, why only 30 seconds for a battle sequence why not at least make it 5 mins. We should see more what causes the battle and why they are fighting and who actually wins. Space battles should be done just like the development of any character. To just give short teases instead of a real drama space battle under utilizes your groups talents.
The space battle was a last minute detail, JMS didn't have it in the script at all until he relized "Oh crap, no action...GOT to have some action!" So he tossed that on the VFX guys last minute pretty much.
Also, incredibly strict timelines to work with....
(Head to [url=http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=4173]CG Society[/url] to read more...theres three articles on the VFX for The Lost Tales there.
Thanks AlexM I'll try to pay more of the little attention I have on the work you did just for me,.. ok us.
7) I don't know, why DID they paint the low techs area? Ok bad joke. It looked like the disembarking area. Having listened to the Babylon Podcast it was explained that the pant was cheaper then aluminum gray. I liked that much as I've come to hate gray.
I have HD, it's my brain that doesn't work. Thus recalling the Earth ships being blue when it is just a stripe.
I hope to see more of your work on the next B5 project! :D
ShadowDancerWhen I say, "Why aye, gadgie," in my heart I say, "Och aye, laddie."London, UK
Just as an aside on the VFX front, I just realised what the Valen-class cruiser reminds me of from some angles: a manta ray, both of which i think look beautiful :)
I still really miss the old hyperspace graphics from the show tho, they will always be hyperspace to me
This is a bit of an art-direction thing, but were the jump points into and out of Quantum Space supposed to be visually distinct from the ones going into and out of "normal" hyperspace? I've only watched once so far, and it was a story-watch and not an effects-watch, so I didn't pick up on any consistent similarities or differences.
Also, I loved the way the station establishing shots were handled. Those first shots after the opening credits made me think that this is what Babylon 5- The Movie would be like.
No, not really. You'll notice the jump point looks the same for the transport carrying Father Cassidy as it does when the IA-1 arrives at B5. We made a few quick versions of the jump points before settling on one. I like the ACTA jump points as well, but I find they had lost their depth compared to the older version, so I wanted to reclaim a bit of that while still keeping the white core, which always made more sense to me.
Again, a bit more time to refine the jump point stuff would have been great, but no, there isn't supposed to be a "quantum" jump point and a "hyper" one.
If anybody has any links or info about this quantam space, let me know. Its actually pissing me off, because it seems like it was just thrown in for the hell of it.
Well, we know from "The Long, Twilight Struggle," and whichever Season 4 episode where they found the Vorlon fleet traveling in a hyperspace "pocket" that the First Ones knew a lot more about Hyperspace than they let on. "Thirdspace" was theorized to be a different, faster version of Hyperspace, before they found out there were evil aliens living in it. In the second "Legions of Fire" book, Vir and the technomages find a Shadow jumpgate that the Drakh dug up that formed a super-high-speed "train" between it and a second jumpgate near the Shadow base of Xa'dam, allowing the distance to be crossed in minutes instead of days.
So there's precedence for trans-hyper-space technology, even if Quantum Space has never specifically been mentioned.
Judging from the images in your gallery, Alec, the VFX appear to be particularly well done. I haven't seen TLT yet (Zone 2 release set to 1st week of September), but I look forward to seeing the models in motion. :)
Well I'm just wondering, it just seemed to come out of nowhere. The Vorlons and Shadows never used it, there was no mention in SiL or Crusade. I just felt it was tagged on for the hell of it. It felt out of place to me.
I watched the opening sequence again, and going frame-by-frame on my computer, and noticed that the Starfuries and shuttle were the series models, and not the Lost Tales version (The new shuttle is curvier, and the new starfuries have the side thrusters going out aligned with the main x and y axes of the ship, while the original had them at an angle, aligned with the wing). And they never fixed the compositing (or scaling) error with the Centauri ship in front of the Minbari one, instead of behind, making the Minbari ship look gigantic. Just a little oddity I saw.
Other thoughts from this quick skim before bed- The Minbari landscape was a beauty, I kind of like the odd little "pop" the jump point made when it closed, the wicker screen on the Valen that Vintari hides behind in his first appearance looks exactly like a rocking chair I have.
I've got to make a more coherent list of observations later.
The opening sequence was done by Zoic Vancouver. I'm not sure which models they used, but I know they converted and updated some of the originals for that one shot. I also noticed some strange luminous blue surface in the forward nozzles of the 'Furys as well.
I know what you mean about the Sharlin scale thing, but it *is* that big. 1600 metres long makes it extremely tall. The Primus is a tad shorter lengthwise, but a lot of that is tail and it's a very flat ship. Seen in 3D next to each other, that's what they look like, I tested it.
Now it may not fit people's perceptions, but can you remember seeing a Primus and a Sharlin next to each other in the series, ever?
The Sharlin simply dwarfs almost all other ships in B5 in terms of its volume. There are longer ships, but very few could look as big when stacked next to a Sharlin like that.
I still prefer the dynamics of the station destruction from "Sleeping in Light", but the version Zoic Vancouver did looks pretty nice.
I must now take back my thrice viewed B5 station. It seems I was in a different reality. There there was a whole extra segment with docking fins on it. ( that would make two sets of fins. Not just top and bottom. )
I noticed it when I went and saw your stills. I looked at the stills and what I saw on the DVD. They weren't the same. I went back to the disk to compare. The station had changed. It was vary confusing untill I realized it was a different reality.
Sorry to have made that mistake in realities. I completely take it back. Your version of B5 looks just fine AlecM.
[QUOTE=A2597;163271]The space battle was a last minute detail, JMS didn't have it in the script at all until he relized "Oh crap, no action...GOT to have some action!" So he tossed that on the VFX guys last minute pretty much.
Also, incredibly strict timelines to work with....
(Head to [url=http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=4173]CG Society[/url] to read more...theres three articles on the VFX for The Lost Tales there.[/QUOTE]
Spoiler: I really agree with Croxis. Quantum space? Did anyone else notice the story problem with this? Someone else mentioned it almost. Remember the Vorlon fleet in season 4? So Marcus and Susan discover this pocket, just barely missed it, it's an important thing that they discover this fleet that the Vorlons are trying to keep hidden, so why would the Vorlons use Hyperspace where they know that the Younger Races could possibly see it? Why not use Quantum space and totally get rid of any chance of discovery? I just can't buy it. And also in SiL, Sheridan wants to get to the Coriana system really fast since he's dying, but uses Hyperspace, which now doesn't make sense.
And I just have to say that I didn't like the new hallways. A lot of the time I was wondering if we were in Brown or Blue sector.
I did like the story though. I like the first one more than the other, and the guy playing the possessed guy did a great job.
As for the FX, which I know this is really supposed to be about. I also agree with Croxis about the Crusade jump points being my favorite, but I also really liked these new ones. I'm glad they didn't look as transparant as the ones in LOTR. I also liked the old B5 blowing up scene from SiL rather than the whole station blowing up at once. I have to agree with liking the smoother looking Centauri ships that we saw before, but all the other ships looked much better (not that I didn't like the Centauri ships). And I loved the Starfuries!
Overall, I was surpised with how good it was. I have to admit that I was afraid that it might not be all that good before I watched it.
[QUOTE=Alec M;163362]I know what you mean about the Sharlin scale thing, but it *is* that big. 1600 metres long makes it extremely tall. The Primus is a tad shorter lengthwise, but a lot of that is tail and it's a very flat ship. Seen in 3D next to each other, that's what they look like, I tested it.
Now it may not fit people's perceptions, but can you remember seeing a Primus and a Sharlin next to each other in the series, ever?[/quote]
True enough. It still seems odd to me that that difference is quite so striking. It looks almost like the Primus is just half as long as the Sharlin, even if it's just a trick of camera angle and positioning.
[quote]I still prefer the dynamics of the station destruction from "Sleeping in Light", but the version Zoic Vancouver did looks pretty nice.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the original was more choreographed and dynamic, with different parts breaking apart differently. The new one looked a bit like lego pieces breaking apart in the back, especially when the solar panels just fall apart for no reason. The flames and the close-up debris looked great, though.
I'll probably the only negative one arouund here :)
IMO both parts looked very low-budjet(probably because they are). Most of the scenes were either in a dark room or in front of a blue screen with static 3d enviorment around.
The acting was, well.. pretty terrible :)
and the whole thing of "god" and the "devil"... a serious question.. "why?". I didn't like it at all.
I liked the refferation to Biggs(as Dr.Franklin) that went "beyond the rim". and the 3d graphics, good to see a high quality renders of babylon5 for a change. :)
spoiler Spoiler: I see a lot of room for the demon boy to just be a shadow ally. Too many things he did was in response to what the caption and the priest were talking about.
[Spoiler]I too think there may be a Shadow link here. Remember when Morden first turned up, he would not name his "associates", kinda similar the way the possessed Simon would not reveal his name, preferring to remain unknown, mysterious. If they are indeed Shadow allies they may have been trapped there after the 1st great war. But who knows eh?[/Spoiler]
Back on topic, to me the new Valen looks like it takes inspiration from the old Tinashi frigates.
Btw Alec I have a few questions on the images on your site.
1. The first 2 images of the station one can see a ship patroling, is it a new Brakiri ship? looks like a smaller Avioki class cruiser. Its in a couple of the other station shots as well.
2. In the EA/Centauri battle dream sequence, where the Warlock is getting pounded, just to the right edge of the image is the wing of a Centauri vessel... I recognise it but think its probably one that showed up in those table top war game releases. Any ideas which one it is?
Think thats it for the moment ;)
Thanks a bunch for putting these images up, they are very very cool and luckily for me just the right size for my screen resolution, how thoughtful of you :D
[quote]1. The first 2 images of the station one can see a ship patroling, is it a new Brakiri ship? looks like a smaller Avioki class cruiser. Its in a couple of the other station shots as well.
2. In the EA/Centauri battle dream sequence, where the Warlock is getting pounded, just to the right edge of the image is the wing of a Centauri vessel... I recognise it but think its probably one that showed up in those table top war game releases. Any ideas which one it is?[/quote]
I can answer that. Those were commissioned by Agents of Gaming for Fabio Passaro to model. Since they were, in fact, his models, and they were in a roundabout way official Babylon 5 (I don't perfectly understand the exact legalities), they could get slipped into the movie as background ships. You can download them for yourself, in fact, from [url=http://meshweaver.com/frames/3d_files.htm]Fabio's site.[/url]
As for the other thing in the first portion of the movie, Spoiler: Babylon 5 made many references to the power of names. Lorien didn't want to tell Sheridan his name, Ulkesh outright lied about his name, the shadows' name is ten thousand letters long, and, in a more prosaic example, the Drakh absolutely flipped out when they learned Delenn's name, even though you'd expect them to recognize her on sight, since there aren't any other Minbari with hair wandering around.
Back during the series, they made it clear there was more going on with death than meets the eye, and I'm glad to see them continuing in the vein. I think it's a lot more interesting than "The Vorlons did it." That seems lazy to me.
Those are some models Fabio made for the AOG game. I really needed a bit of variety in terms of the background ships, plus, he was able to get those models to me well before I eventually got a hold of the original B5 library.
You should be able to find a Centauri "Balvarin" fighter carrier as well as a "Kutai" gunship, both in the battle scene. The Brakiri ship around B5 is a "Tashkat" cruiser.
It would have been nice to have a bit more, but each model required a certainl amount of setup time and at the end of the day background ships aren't of huge importance.
I know Fabio has some images of the models on his website: [URL="http://www.meshweaver.com"]http://www.meshweaver.com[/URL]. I think they're in the "3D Files" section.
Comments
4) Earth ships were certainly grey, except for the Omegas which were sort of brown, and still are in the two shots I put them in. There are lots of kinds of "grey".
5) Can't help there.
6) It's the right way, trust me. That view is VERY disorienting. The camera is exactly where it should be spinning around with the same station animation as the rest of the shots. It just looks weird, it's the nature of the geography. I thought the same thing when I did the first preview of that shot.
7) B5 was built on the cheap, right, why would they spend money to paint to decorate a place that only lowly techs usually enter for any significant period of time? :p
8) There is a G'Quan around the station in a couple of shots. Drazi ship still has the bright engines, just not quite so blazing orange, more of a glow, plus it's far away and might not be visible in standard def.
9) The green decal kicks ass.
10) B5 is not bigger. It is exactly 5 miles long, exactly. All of the other ships are scaled properly as best as I could manage, though in a lot of our shots they're farther away from the station. The old models can't hold up to HD frame size and there was no time to work on them, plus, why would you even want a Sharlin 500 metres from B5? Space is big, better to keep some distance for safety ;)
Awesome comments. Oh, and A2597, you should be able to find an Omega or two in at least one other shot.
On Thunderbolts....just no time, and not really *that* important.
Most things are rendered at 1920x1080 for this. Depends on the element, or the shot. Some things can be less, rarely is anything ever more. Nothing is absolute.
B5 is a tough crowd to play to. I hope the disc does well enough for more.
VFX artists don't get to do design or art direction work very often, which is why it was such a treat and so much fun for "Lost Tales".
Also, incredibly strict timelines to work with....
(Head to [url=http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=4173]CG Society[/url] to read more...theres three articles on the VFX for The Lost Tales there.
7) I don't know, why DID they paint the low techs area? Ok bad joke. It looked like the disembarking area. Having listened to the Babylon Podcast it was explained that the pant was cheaper then aluminum gray. I liked that much as I've come to hate gray.
I have HD, it's my brain that doesn't work. Thus recalling the Earth ships being blue when it is just a stripe.
I hope to see more of your work on the next B5 project! :D
I still really miss the old hyperspace graphics from the show tho, they will always be hyperspace to me
Also, I loved the way the station establishing shots were handled. Those first shots after the opening credits made me think that this is what Babylon 5- The Movie would be like.
Again, a bit more time to refine the jump point stuff would have been great, but no, there isn't supposed to be a "quantum" jump point and a "hyper" one.
So there's precedence for trans-hyper-space technology, even if Quantum Space has never specifically been mentioned.
It would all look so nice in a game too....
Other thoughts from this quick skim before bed- The Minbari landscape was a beauty, I kind of like the odd little "pop" the jump point made when it closed, the wicker screen on the Valen that Vintari hides behind in his first appearance looks exactly like a rocking chair I have.
I've got to make a more coherent list of observations later.
I know what you mean about the Sharlin scale thing, but it *is* that big. 1600 metres long makes it extremely tall. The Primus is a tad shorter lengthwise, but a lot of that is tail and it's a very flat ship. Seen in 3D next to each other, that's what they look like, I tested it.
Now it may not fit people's perceptions, but can you remember seeing a Primus and a Sharlin next to each other in the series, ever?
The Sharlin simply dwarfs almost all other ships in B5 in terms of its volume. There are longer ships, but very few could look as big when stacked next to a Sharlin like that.
I still prefer the dynamics of the station destruction from "Sleeping in Light", but the version Zoic Vancouver did looks pretty nice.
I noticed it when I went and saw your stills. I looked at the stills and what I saw on the DVD. They weren't the same. I went back to the disk to compare. The station had changed. It was vary confusing untill I realized it was a different reality.
Sorry to have made that mistake in realities. I completely take it back. Your version of B5 looks just fine AlecM.
Also, incredibly strict timelines to work with....
(Head to [url=http://features.cgsociety.org/story_custom.php?story_id=4173]CG Society[/url] to read more...theres three articles on the VFX for The Lost Tales there.[/QUOTE]
interesting
Spoiler: I really agree with Croxis. Quantum space? Did anyone else notice the story problem with this? Someone else mentioned it almost. Remember the Vorlon fleet in season 4? So Marcus and Susan discover this pocket, just barely missed it, it's an important thing that they discover this fleet that the Vorlons are trying to keep hidden, so why would the Vorlons use Hyperspace where they know that the Younger Races could possibly see it? Why not use Quantum space and totally get rid of any chance of discovery? I just can't buy it. And also in SiL, Sheridan wants to get to the Coriana system really fast since he's dying, but uses Hyperspace, which now doesn't make sense.
And I just have to say that I didn't like the new hallways. A lot of the time I was wondering if we were in Brown or Blue sector.
I did like the story though. I like the first one more than the other, and the guy playing the possessed guy did a great job.
As for the FX, which I know this is really supposed to be about. I also agree with Croxis about the Crusade jump points being my favorite, but I also really liked these new ones. I'm glad they didn't look as transparant as the ones in LOTR. I also liked the old B5 blowing up scene from SiL rather than the whole station blowing up at once. I have to agree with liking the smoother looking Centauri ships that we saw before, but all the other ships looked much better (not that I didn't like the Centauri ships). And I loved the Starfuries!
Overall, I was surpised with how good it was. I have to admit that I was afraid that it might not be all that good before I watched it.
Now it may not fit people's perceptions, but can you remember seeing a Primus and a Sharlin next to each other in the series, ever?[/quote]
True enough. It still seems odd to me that that difference is quite so striking. It looks almost like the Primus is just half as long as the Sharlin, even if it's just a trick of camera angle and positioning.
[quote]I still prefer the dynamics of the station destruction from "Sleeping in Light", but the version Zoic Vancouver did looks pretty nice.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, the original was more choreographed and dynamic, with different parts breaking apart differently. The new one looked a bit like lego pieces breaking apart in the back, especially when the solar panels just fall apart for no reason. The flames and the close-up debris looked great, though.
SPOILER ALERT
*******************
I'll probably the only negative one arouund here :)
IMO both parts looked very low-budjet(probably because they are). Most of the scenes were either in a dark room or in front of a blue screen with static 3d enviorment around.
The acting was, well.. pretty terrible :)
and the whole thing of "god" and the "devil"... a serious question.. "why?". I didn't like it at all.
I liked the refferation to Biggs(as Dr.Franklin) that went "beyond the rim". and the 3d graphics, good to see a high quality renders of babylon5 for a change. :)
Back on topic, to me the new Valen looks like it takes inspiration from the old Tinashi frigates.
1. The first 2 images of the station one can see a ship patroling, is it a new Brakiri ship? looks like a smaller Avioki class cruiser. Its in a couple of the other station shots as well.
2. In the EA/Centauri battle dream sequence, where the Warlock is getting pounded, just to the right edge of the image is the wing of a Centauri vessel... I recognise it but think its probably one that showed up in those table top war game releases. Any ideas which one it is?
Think thats it for the moment ;)
Thanks a bunch for putting these images up, they are very very cool and luckily for me just the right size for my screen resolution, how thoughtful of you :D
2. In the EA/Centauri battle dream sequence, where the Warlock is getting pounded, just to the right edge of the image is the wing of a Centauri vessel... I recognise it but think its probably one that showed up in those table top war game releases. Any ideas which one it is?[/quote]
I can answer that. Those were commissioned by Agents of Gaming for Fabio Passaro to model. Since they were, in fact, his models, and they were in a roundabout way official Babylon 5 (I don't perfectly understand the exact legalities), they could get slipped into the movie as background ships. You can download them for yourself, in fact, from [url=http://meshweaver.com/frames/3d_files.htm]Fabio's site.[/url]
As for the other thing in the first portion of the movie, Spoiler: Babylon 5 made many references to the power of names. Lorien didn't want to tell Sheridan his name, Ulkesh outright lied about his name, the shadows' name is ten thousand letters long, and, in a more prosaic example, the Drakh absolutely flipped out when they learned Delenn's name, even though you'd expect them to recognize her on sight, since there aren't any other Minbari with hair wandering around.
Back during the series, they made it clear there was more going on with death than meets the eye, and I'm glad to see them continuing in the vein. I think it's a lot more interesting than "The Vorlons did it." That seems lazy to me.
You should be able to find a Centauri "Balvarin" fighter carrier as well as a "Kutai" gunship, both in the battle scene. The Brakiri ship around B5 is a "Tashkat" cruiser.
It would have been nice to have a bit more, but each model required a certainl amount of setup time and at the end of the day background ships aren't of huge importance.
I know Fabio has some images of the models on his website: [URL="http://www.meshweaver.com"]http://www.meshweaver.com[/URL]. I think they're in the "3D Files" section.