Episode 13 Spoiler: Ok, I guess we can ignore my thoughts about Utopia. I have to admit, I was a little disapointed with this episode, it was a bit too Star Trek for my liking. However, I did like the last few minutes...Jack as the Face of Boe! And Martha has left (although I'm sure she'll be back next year but I suspect not for the Christmas special).
Worf
RubberEagleWhat's a rubber eagle used for, anyway?
[QUOTE=WORF;162064]Episode 13 Spoiler: Ok, I guess we can ignore my thoughts about Utopia. I have to admit, I was a little disapointed with this episode, it was a bit too Star Trek for my liking. However, I did like the last few minutes...Jack as the Face of Boe! And Martha has left (although I'm sure she'll be back next year but I suspect not for the Christmas special).[/QUOTE]
ep13 Spoiler: yep, i felt the same way. I was glad the Anti-timelord-weapon was just a hoax, it never felt right that the Doctor would even consider killing the Master as an option.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Spoiler: Well, the resolution was extremely deus ex machina. But entertaining, none the less.
Interesting to see that Martha pulled out, but I think it's fairly likely she'll be back next year after the Christmas special is out of the way. Probably with a comment like "How can I live a normal life after all I've seen?" or something.
Spoiler: I get the impression they're going to use the Christmas episodes for guest companions. I'm going to watch it again tomorrow but I'm still not convinced, pressing the reset button irritated me. That said, the performances were all brilliant as usual. We'll probably be seeing The Master again at some point. Did anyone notice the hand taking the ring from the ashes? I'm guessing that was The Rani.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Spoiler: The Rani? Who?
The reset button wasn't entirely pressed; Martha's family still has to deal with it. Actually what I found most disappointing about this pair of episodes was that we didn't get to see any real response by Martha's family to the discovery that they were playing the wrong side.
RubberEagleWhat's a rubber eagle used for, anyway?
[QUOTE=Biggles;162094] Spoiler: The reset button wasn't entirely pressed; Martha's family still has to deal with it. Actually what I found most disappointing about this pair of episodes was that we didn't get to see any real response by Martha's family to the discovery that they were playing the wrong side.[/QUOTE]
Spoiler: I guess for that they'd have needed another 5-10 minutes ;).
One thing that i wasn't too hot about was the parrot-doctor. I understand that they couldn't have David Tennant for almost the entire episode in the make-up (because of the time required to apply it), but to replace a great actor with a CG-puppet.....
RubberEagleWhat's a rubber eagle used for, anyway?
And let me be the first to say: Argh.... 6 Months till new doctor who....
Sanfam and I both agree with the majority on this one, though he's a bit more upset about it than I am. Spoiler: I personally didn't mind the Paradox Machine's reset button, it made sense considering how it was set up, but I was rather confused about the Doctor magically transforming back to his normal self. And I agree about the parrot bit too. As Sanfam said to me, it was the interplay between The Doctor and the Master that made the Sound of Drums really good. Once he was aged though that basically stopped and the Master got kind of boring. I hate saying I'm disappointed with this show but I kind of was. I'll let Sanfam explain it better.
My biggest point of conflict was the five minute plot resolution. Given the very solid season backup up the development of this episode, everything that was so carefully constructed was simply wiped clean away. There wasn't much ingenuity on part of the doctor, and Martha's mission seemed too simple. Archangel's weakness just did not make enough sense. The (likely temporary) loss of the master also felt a bit too much like a cheat. He did not technically die, so we're likely to see him return without a regeneration thanks to the Lazarus machine. (my guess there is that while the machine failed to properly age a human, perhaps it was not designed with a human in mind...)
Anyhoo, here's how I believe things should have happened:
The buildup in The Sound Of Drums was excellent. Perhaps The Doctor would have been preserved at his normal age, but kept contained by some mechanism. The continued interplay between The Doctor and The Master would have been fantastic. But rather than keeping it as a two-parter, extend it to a total length of four or five parts in the style of the old series.
In my imaginary five-parter, we would have had the season finale being episode two, the world one year after the attack. We would get to see the devastation which the spheres brought upon the world. We were hinted a few times, but nothing significant came of it beyond glimpses at a tiny group of people.
We also have ourselves an interesting situation. Nothing said the Paradox machine needed to be running after the spheres entered our time. It very well could have been dismantled and reconditioned as the TARDIS we knew, though limited again to the locked coordinates of trillions of years in the future and the (more-or-less) present when The Master arrived.
We also have another fun scenario in that if a person is unavailable to portray The Master into the fourth season, we can kill off the current actor and regenerate. Availability is not an issue.
The only significant problem with my proposed episode scheme is that there needs to be some location, past or future, for the christmas special to fit in.
Though I'll expand this later. I'm limited to a fairly small screen right now. Consider this post a draft.
Spoiler: Agreed, I'd really have liked to see more of the Doctor and The Master matching wits, given all the hype about how The Master is supposed to be his equal in all things.
I found myself enjoying the end of the episode more, seeing Jack and Martha's farewell, plus the teaser for the Christmas special. I liked the mystery surrounding The Face of Boe and thought that if they ever explored that character too much, it would ruin things but I rather like the idea that it's Captain Jack. The way they revealed that was one of the most enjoyable scenes in the episode.
John Simm, the actor who played the Master has his own series, Life on Mars so he may or may not return for the role. I'm convinced that it was [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rani"]The Rani[/URL] who took the ring from the ashes.
Interesting thoughts Sanfam, I'm looking forward to reading the rest.
Worf
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
[QUOTE=Sanfam;162134]Lots of stuff.[/QUOTE]
Spoiler: The BBC doesn't do seasons. They do series. Frankly, I'm glad for it. If they did as you suggested, it'd be the start of a slippery slope into the crappy situation that most American TV finds itself in.
Spoiler: Utopia, The Sound of Drums and Last of the Time Lords are actually the same length of the six part stories from the old series, since the old episodes had half the running time of the ones we get now.
It's true, the running time is very similar to that of the old serials, but the older works featured an uninterrupted, typically self-contained storyline that did not need to re-establish itself much between the parts. On top of that, the old serials honestly did not have much going on over their run (relative to how much action occurs in any modern production).
Given the energy, I'll resume my earlier post and build further on my ideas.
You do indeed make a good point, Biggles, but I must disagree. I believe that American TV is crap not because of the method of presentation, but the fairly low standards set by the major studios for content. Executives aim low and carry expectations suited for just that. American TV is famous for disregarding the intelligence of the audience as existing in any form, where other nations have a tendency to focus on quality over quantity. A traditional Season can be just as effective as a Series given the same quality put into its creation. But when you have networks and production executives staff shows beyond their maximum capacity to develop (*cough* BSG), the bar needs to be lowered as the content (a fixed quantity of which exists) needs to be stretched further than it safely can. Cliffs: The BBC has very close monitoring and of its content, exceptionally high standards and an urge to achieve. American TV aims for quantity, flooding the medium in every which way. When a hit is found, it is typically watered down for wider appeal. Other courses of action are rare.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
This may be so, but the season format, and it's need to ensure viewers come back for the next season through the use of the end of the current season, leads to artificial requirements on the story beyond those necessary in the series format. Namely, the need for a cliff hanger and thus the need to create artificial drama at the end of a season if the story is not already leading there naturally. B5 was forced against its will to [i]not[/i] have a cliff hanger at the end of S4, and I think it's better off for it. We're already seeing some of the season format creep into the most recent series of Doctor Who, with its desire to finish each series with a bang leading to constraints on the other episodes of the series (most obvious in this most recent series), while stories of older series tended to be distinct and separate.
There's also the fact that I dislike waiting 6 or 9 months for the continuation of a story, and that I think that forcing viewers to do so is stupid. :)
RubberEagleWhat's a rubber eagle used for, anyway?
[QUOTE=Biggles;162149]There's also the fact that I dislike waiting 6 or 9 months for the continuation of a story, and that I think that forcing viewers to do so is stupid. :)[/QUOTE]
Yes, that's a thing i love about british shows, that at the end of a series, they tie up (most) of the story-threads.
I also think that it's better from a production/marketing POV. With the series format, you only need to remind people of the general feeling of the last season, while with a cliffhanger, you need to have a "previously on", and probably a very different marketing campaign.
[quote]The BBC apologised yesterday for alarming shoppers on Sunday with an explosion near the Millennium Stadium. A crew was filming the Doctor Who spin-off Torchwood.[/quote]
The christmas episode begins filming next month, so I think a trip to Cardiff is in order :)
And suddenly, the fourth series doesn't seem quite so appealing...[URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6267680.stm"]link[/URL]. (NOTE: Don't click if you consider casting information spoilers)
Spoiler: I find Catherine Tate rather irritating and the character she played in The Runaway Bride...now we have to put up with her for 13 more episodes :(
They should stick with Martha. Ok, her crush on the Doctor was a bit annoying from time to time but other than that, she was a good character. Better than Donna.
Worf
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Spoiler: I hope they change the character a lot. I found her to be immensely irritating.
RubberEagleWhat's a rubber eagle used for, anyway?
Spoiler: Yep, i'm a bit irritated by that decision too... Her character was fine as a one time guest, but in all the episodes?
Also, I was hoping the rumors about a male companion were true. That would have changed the dynamics a bit.
And, for the record, I'm a huge martha fan, so i'm disapointed that she won't be in all episodes. But then again, she's gonna be in Torchwood...
Spoiler: Her Torchwood appearance should be great. Of course knowing them, she'll probably bed a lead and open a new can of worms :p
As far as the the companion decision goes, I'm joining the side of the annoyed. I tolerated her appearance in the Christmas Special because it was just that. I felt they sufficiently removed any potential desire on her part to ever join The Doctor. This makes two things that I wish for less of in Series 4 (*cough*Helen Raynor...*shiver*). I also worry about the implication of other big-name guest stars. Such bits can be fun, but care must be taken.
But going back to Torchwood, I'm most concerned with its direction. Its first year had some gems (Countrycide), but it also produced some absolute crap (Cyberwoman...), and the remainder floated evenly between feeling that the show was repeatedly trying to force on its viewers the idea that it was more adult-oriented than who. I'm also curious as to how they'll deal with the knowledge of Captain Jack Harkness, the Unkillable Wonderman.
Biggles<font color=#AAFFAA>The Man Without a Face</font>
Torchwood needs to stop forcing the adultness on its viewers if it is to be watchable through a second series. Martha being in a few episodes could be interesting, so long as she doesn't end up sleeping with anyone or anything.
I'm still confused as to the switch,
anyone know why Martha isn't going to be in all of series 4? I personally think the interplay between Donna and Martha could be very funny.?
Comments
Worf
ep13 Spoiler: yep, i felt the same way. I was glad the Anti-timelord-weapon was just a hoax, it never felt right that the Doctor would even consider killing the Master as an option.
Interesting to see that Martha pulled out, but I think it's fairly likely she'll be back next year after the Christmas special is out of the way. Probably with a comment like "How can I live a normal life after all I've seen?" or something.
The reset button wasn't entirely pressed; Martha's family still has to deal with it. Actually what I found most disappointing about this pair of episodes was that we didn't get to see any real response by Martha's family to the discovery that they were playing the wrong side.
Spoiler: I guess for that they'd have needed another 5-10 minutes ;).
One thing that i wasn't too hot about was the parrot-doctor. I understand that they couldn't have David Tennant for almost the entire episode in the make-up (because of the time required to apply it), but to replace a great actor with a CG-puppet.....
Ep 13: Spoiler: Yeah. Disappointed.
My biggest point of conflict was the five minute plot resolution. Given the very solid season backup up the development of this episode, everything that was so carefully constructed was simply wiped clean away. There wasn't much ingenuity on part of the doctor, and Martha's mission seemed too simple. Archangel's weakness just did not make enough sense. The (likely temporary) loss of the master also felt a bit too much like a cheat. He did not technically die, so we're likely to see him return without a regeneration thanks to the Lazarus machine. (my guess there is that while the machine failed to properly age a human, perhaps it was not designed with a human in mind...)
Anyhoo, here's how I believe things should have happened:
The buildup in The Sound Of Drums was excellent. Perhaps The Doctor would have been preserved at his normal age, but kept contained by some mechanism. The continued interplay between The Doctor and The Master would have been fantastic. But rather than keeping it as a two-parter, extend it to a total length of four or five parts in the style of the old series.
In my imaginary five-parter, we would have had the season finale being episode two, the world one year after the attack. We would get to see the devastation which the spheres brought upon the world. We were hinted a few times, but nothing significant came of it beyond glimpses at a tiny group of people.
We also have ourselves an interesting situation. Nothing said the Paradox machine needed to be running after the spheres entered our time. It very well could have been dismantled and reconditioned as the TARDIS we knew, though limited again to the locked coordinates of trillions of years in the future and the (more-or-less) present when The Master arrived.
We also have another fun scenario in that if a person is unavailable to portray The Master into the fourth season, we can kill off the current actor and regenerate. Availability is not an issue.
The only significant problem with my proposed episode scheme is that there needs to be some location, past or future, for the christmas special to fit in.
Though I'll expand this later. I'm limited to a fairly small screen right now. Consider this post a draft.
I found myself enjoying the end of the episode more, seeing Jack and Martha's farewell, plus the teaser for the Christmas special. I liked the mystery surrounding The Face of Boe and thought that if they ever explored that character too much, it would ruin things but I rather like the idea that it's Captain Jack. The way they revealed that was one of the most enjoyable scenes in the episode.
John Simm, the actor who played the Master has his own series, Life on Mars so he may or may not return for the role. I'm convinced that it was [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rani"]The Rani[/URL] who took the ring from the ashes.
Interesting thoughts Sanfam, I'm looking forward to reading the rest.
Worf
Spoiler: The BBC doesn't do seasons. They do series. Frankly, I'm glad for it. If they did as you suggested, it'd be the start of a slippery slope into the crappy situation that most American TV finds itself in.
Given the energy, I'll resume my earlier post and build further on my ideas.
You do indeed make a good point, Biggles, but I must disagree. I believe that American TV is crap not because of the method of presentation, but the fairly low standards set by the major studios for content. Executives aim low and carry expectations suited for just that. American TV is famous for disregarding the intelligence of the audience as existing in any form, where other nations have a tendency to focus on quality over quantity. A traditional Season can be just as effective as a Series given the same quality put into its creation. But when you have networks and production executives staff shows beyond their maximum capacity to develop (*cough* BSG), the bar needs to be lowered as the content (a fixed quantity of which exists) needs to be stretched further than it safely can. Cliffs: The BBC has very close monitoring and of its content, exceptionally high standards and an urge to achieve. American TV aims for quantity, flooding the medium in every which way. When a hit is found, it is typically watered down for wider appeal. Other courses of action are rare.
There's also the fact that I dislike waiting 6 or 9 months for the continuation of a story, and that I think that forcing viewers to do so is stupid. :)
Yes, that's a thing i love about british shows, that at the end of a series, they tie up (most) of the story-threads.
I also think that it's better from a production/marketing POV. With the series format, you only need to remind people of the general feeling of the last season, while with a cliffhanger, you need to have a "previously on", and probably a very different marketing campaign.
The christmas episode begins filming next month, so I think a trip to Cardiff is in order :)
And suddenly, the fourth series doesn't seem quite so appealing...[URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6267680.stm"]link[/URL]. (NOTE: Don't click if you consider casting information spoilers)
Spoiler: I find Catherine Tate rather irritating and the character she played in The Runaway Bride...now we have to put up with her for 13 more episodes :(
They should stick with Martha. Ok, her crush on the Doctor was a bit annoying from time to time but other than that, she was a good character. Better than Donna.
Worf
Also, I was hoping the rumors about a male companion were true. That would have changed the dynamics a bit.
And, for the record, I'm a huge martha fan, so i'm disapointed that she won't be in all episodes. But then again, she's gonna be in Torchwood...
As far as the the companion decision goes, I'm joining the side of the annoyed. I tolerated her appearance in the Christmas Special because it was just that. I felt they sufficiently removed any potential desire on her part to ever join The Doctor. This makes two things that I wish for less of in Series 4 (*cough*Helen Raynor...*shiver*). I also worry about the implication of other big-name guest stars. Such bits can be fun, but care must be taken.
But going back to Torchwood, I'm most concerned with its direction. Its first year had some gems (Countrycide), but it also produced some absolute crap (Cyberwoman...), and the remainder floated evenly between feeling that the show was repeatedly trying to force on its viewers the idea that it was more adult-oriented than who. I'm also curious as to how they'll deal with the knowledge of Captain Jack Harkness, the Unkillable Wonderman.
anyone know why Martha isn't going to be in all of series 4? I personally think the interplay between Donna and Martha could be very funny.?